Possibly we need revisions in 'Standard" rifle rules

Pete A. · Post by **Pete A.** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:09 pm

IMHO "Standard" smallbore rifle rules are far too stringent.

Look at airguns and basically anything that is manufactured is legal. "Space guns" allowed; I am ok with this. 'Adjustable" everything is ok.

It would seem that we should allow the 3 position smallbore shooters to do little more that change sights, remove hook butt plate, and fore-end 'stuff'. Then add a scope and come shoot with us.

Are we missing out on a huge talent pool of shooters? Shouldn't we take at a more "inclusive" view of this rifle class?

Pete A.

Jerry G · Post by **Jerry G** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:59 pm

Position shooters don't like to shoot with us. We make too much noise and we do everything standing up.

I think the rules should be frozen for at least 5 years. Everytime I turn around someone has a new rule and most of them are pure BS. We use to have "open bolt indicators" that wasn't good enough, now we have "empty chamber indicators" What?? Does your rifle go bang with the bolt open? Mine dosen't. You can buy a rifle with a tuner on it from the factory or you can spend how many $s on a heavy after market barrel (with a taper) but you can't put an after market tuner on it. Who knows what goes thru their minds?

Back to your point, The only way you can get more people interested is make it easier. See lever rifle, trap, or golf. That isn't an option for someone that has been in the sport for awhile.

atomicbrh · Post by **atomicbrh** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:35 pm

I agree with Pete A. on this one. If a person is over 6 foot 2, thin and with long arms you cannot get a rifle with enough length of pull that fits in the jig and fits the shooter. My 15 year old is over 6 foot 2 inches and it has been a constant expensive battle to keep him in a Smallbore Hunter rifle that fits because of phenomenal growth spirts. We shooter Hunter Rifle in both classes. The Walther LG30 Target Air Rifle is a different story. No gluing, no fitting recoil pads and spacers every few months. Just a T -handle wrench, a few seconds and the air rifle fits perfect again with each growth spirt with zero cost and labor. Smallbore rifle should be the same way. It makes no sense.

Bobby R. Huddleston

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:18 pm

I hear ya on the length of pull issues for taller people. I am 6'4" and many guns fit me smallish. I want to add an extra spacer or something to the end of my CZ its just to cramped up and I have to jack the scope up big time. It will still be under the line of the bore so it should be legit. Its bad enough I can't reach my pelvis to rest since I am mainly torso but to have the short LOP really bites as you can not get a firm plant with your elbow without holding the forearm out like your swinging a shotgun. Guess I need to see what the rules say for overall length on the rifles it seems short enough now to add to.

You shouldn't have to buy a custom stock to get it to fit you and be legal I mean come on the expense is enough just to get going besides would you want short people to have to shoot rifles as long as kentucky flintlocks? lol

Whats really sad it that as sportsmans we have to have "rules," at all that are so hard to read and misinterpreted by everyone that reads them. For the simple way the sport is scored understanding the rules is a bit over the top. This is coming from someone that does Regulatory Compliance for a living ;) Personally I hate reading rules and regs.. LETS SHOOT!!

Dee

Worker 11811 · Post by **Worker 11811** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:32 pm

I've been reading up on the rules and I agree with most of you guys. There are a lot of silly, arbitrary rules.

But I can also see how some of those rules make sense. There needs to be some kind of limitation so that a guy can go to the sporting goods store and buy a gun and walk out onto the range and start shooing with it, yet still be able to shoot on a level playing field with the "pros."

Well, at least, I can see how SOME of the rules try to do that.

On the other hand: Why should an experienced shooter who has the means and the know-how to make a better gun be limited to the "lowest common denominator" of the sport? That makes no sense, whatsoever. The sport will never advance if innovation is not allowed.

I think there should be an "Open" or "Unlimited" class. One where almost anything goes. As long as the gun uses standard, commercially available .22 LR ammo, is safe to handle and shoot and is legal to own in the juristdiction of the match, it is allowed.

You know... The "Moster Truck Class" of silhouette shooting!

I want to see guns with zillion-power scopes and all kinds of funky stabilizers and compensators. I want to see all kinks of space-aged stocks and triggers. I want to see just what people can dream up!

No, these "super guns" wouldn't be allowed to shoot in the regular classes. That would put the others at a disadvantage. If some guy can't afford to trick out his gun he won't be able to compete.

On the other hand, if a guy DOES have money and know-how, why should he be arbitrarily limited?

dryfire · Post by **dryfire** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:34 pm

An unlimited class or modifications to the existing standard rifle class
will mean nothing. Recent experience and scores with hunter rifle
equal and many times better the scores of standard rifle. Look at
Sanchez's scores in the HP Nationals.
I agree with the comment earlier in the thread, that to attract more
participation the game has to be easier. BUT,if it was would we compete?
I like the challenge the way it is.
I watched part of a local skeet tournament last weekend with 18
competitors. Over half of them shot 85% or better. And the runner-up with 98% was disappointed that the winner had 100% hits.
Our silo club matches with 10-14 competitors have average scores
about 60% and the winner hits 80-85%.
The enjoyment of this game is the challenge it presents. If it was easy as breathing everyone would be in on it.
It's tough but it's FUN!

carl425 · Post by **carl425** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:04 am

It seems to me that the fact that so many shooters are using the same rifle for both hunter and standard implies that either the rules for standard rifle are too tight or the rules for hunting rifle are too loose.

There should be a definite advantage to a standard rifle. When originally written, I would expect that the extra weight allowed in standard was enough to make a difference in the scope and/or barrel. With the 20 oz stocks now available and legal (who here owns a REAL hunting rifle with a 20 oz stock?) that advantage has blurred.

I could go either way - restrict hunting rifles or open up standard, but make them different so there is a reasonable justification for having two classes.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:44 am

carl425 wrote:It seems to me that the fact that so many shooters are using the same rifle for both hunter and standard implies that either the rules for standard rifle are too tight or the rules for hunting rifle are too loose.

Manufacturers and creative minds have refined our equipment to fit the rules, Carl. An Aunschutz 1712 is designed to the limits of Hunter class, yet is hard to improve on much for Standard class! Sure you can take a 54 action, add a Lilja barrel and Pharr stock to gain some improvement, but a box stock 1712 is pretty competitive. It's a matter of adapting to rules over time.

carl425 · Post by **carl425** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:24 am

BlauBear wrote:Manufacturers and creative minds have refined our equipment to fit the rules, Carl. An Aunschutz 1712 is designed to the limits of Hunter class, yet is hard to improve on much for Standard class! Sure you can take a 54 action, add a Lilja barrel and Pharr stock to gain some improvement, but a box stock 1712 is pretty competitive. It's a matter of adapting to rules over time.

Yes, I understand this, I own one of those 1712's. The fact that there is no room to improve a hunting rifle and keep it legal in standard is the problem I'm talking about. If the same rifle can win both, why have 2 classes?

Pete offers some ideas of how standard rifle could be opened up. If you don't want to go in that direction, here's some changes that could be made to hunter class.

- Min 4 lb single stage only trigger (do you hunt with a 2lb trigger?)
- Max 9 power scope (how many squirrel rifles have 36x scopes?)
- off the shelf rifles only (of course the 1712 screws this one)
- require a notarized photo of a squirrel shot with this rifle

In any case, something should be changed so the 2 classes are different. Otherwise, just dump the hunter designation and make everything a standard rifle. At least then we'd only have to remember one set of rules.

funny: no offense intended, but I thought it was funny that my spell checker suggested "Blabber" as a substitute for "BlauBear".

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:09 am

From what I gather many people shoot the same rifle in both classes because thats the cheapest way to go and be able to shoot in both. Plus you get really familiar with the one gun instead of going back and forth between totally different setups.

Sure many of us would love a custom standard rifle to go along with out hunter/standard as of now. However, I think a lot of wives would get pissed if they thought their hubbies were working some RULES angle to get themselves a new high dollar rig

I can hear it now, but baby its not my fault I need the Anshutz with all the mods blame the governing body for silhouettes

after all its their fault they went and changed the rules.

My wife asked if it was what I wanted after I got my new CZ. I told her yeah and that I would not hint at wanting a custom rifle built until I was at least AAA, she tells me to take my time

Dee

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:26 pm

carl425 wrote:Yes, I understand this, I own one of those 1712's. The fact that there is no room to improve a hunting rifle and keep it legal in standard is the problem I'm talking about. If the same rifle can win both, why have 2 classes?

Good point. If the sport has outgrown the rules, extend the rules to increase challenge, interest and development.

- Bob, aka "Blabber"

pistolero45 · Post by **pistolero45** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:47 pm

I don't intend to ruffle any feathers by saying this, but it has long been my opinion that the scopes used in Hunter class should actually be hunting type scopes. I do not think they should be more than 10x and should not have target turrets. It might even be a good idea to forbid changing the elevation/windage adjustments during a match. And I would allow the use of slings as well, as they are a useful hunting accessory.

I love to shoot Hunter rifle, but lets face it: a 25x scope is absolutely worthless for shooting squirrels and rabbits. My Hunter rifle never gets used for real hunting anymore!

Okay, I have had my say - please do not take offense!

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:55 pm

Not that I would ever stir the pot but....
How many of you have ever hunted prairie dogs? Seems that the more power you have to pull those babies in the better off you are and then you can even watch the impact.

Innocent

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:08 pm

Well I might just as well stir the pot too Mary....

- Min 4 lb single stage only trigger (do you hunt with a 2lb trigger?)
1.5 lb Max for me
- Max 9 power scope (how many squirrel rifles have 36x scopes?)
6.5x20 or 8.5x32 on all the rifles I own
- off the shelf rifles only (of course the 1712 screws this one)
They tried it and it didn't work to hard to enforce and it doesn't make any difference the winners today will win tomorrow with what ever they shoot. It's less about the equipment and more about the shooter
- require a notarized photo of a squirrel shot with this rifle
Hmmmm, can do that.

Now, I bought and shoot both types of rifles. Personally I hate any trigger over 1 lb so I loved STD class, but switching back and forth was getting to hard on me. Did I tell you I hate a 2 lb trigger? So liking fancy rifles and Kitty getting me into a Bling race I had a custom rifle built and love it. But guess what, my scores are down almost 7-10 animals, why, because of that damn 2 lb trigger

So now I shoot one gun both classes with a great feeling 2 lb trigger, if you like 2 lb triggers, which I don't and my scores are down, but I'm happy because I love shooting silhouette and my new rifle even though it has a 2 lb trigger.

The way this sport is we do not need more rules to make more rifles illegal, like they did with the chin guns.. if the NRA does that they will loose a lot more shooters. Keep the rules the way they are and shoot what you bring, it's not the rifle that knocks them down it's the person behind it. The only way you get better and knock more animals down is practice, practice and more practice. A new gun doesn't do it, it just looks prettier and your wife is happy your spending your retirement fund on 'pretty things'.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:33 pm

Whatever the rules, the winner probably practices the most.