What to do about this flinch?

[jrebelo]

Hey folks. I'm going to be doing some practice this coming weekend to prepare for my second high power match which I'll be shooting first weekend in March. I shoot reduced loads with cast bullets. 18gr of SR4759 behind a 200gr bullet. The recoil is very minimal and doesn't bother me in the slightest (full load recoil doesn't 'bother' me, either, but I had assumed that lighter recoil would mean less flinch potential).

Anyway, I do my practice on paper and the paper is telling me that I'm dropping the barrel right as I go to break the trigger. I have lightened up my trigger to around 2.5lbs but I still find that I just can't kick this dropping problem. I am not consciously doing anything I'm aware of, but the paper doesn't lie. I find if I break my shots over the back of the chicken, this usually results in a hit to the mid section or possibly even toward the leg.

Can any of you impart some experienced wisdom on how I can correct this problem? Without any good solution, I'm currently going to have to shoot over the backs of all my targets in competition, but I would really like to try to correct the problem somehow.

Thanks for any advice.
Justin

[dustinflint]

Are you sure your gun is zeroed correctly? Is it dead-on when shooting from the bench?

I usually zero my rifle on the bench then test it offhand. If I'm shooting offhand at paper or I have someone spotting me and I'm breaking good shots but missing low and right, I'm going to adjust my scope accordingly. the whole point is to have the bullet go where you broke the shot when you break a good shot.

Dustin

[jrebelo]

Yeah, I guess I take it for granted and assume anyone should know well enough to confirm the gun zero before assuming the problem is technique. I sighted my gun on paper immediately prior to my first HP match two weeks ago and then proceeded to shoot low on most targets during the match. I adjusted my point of aim, as I mentioned, to compensate during the match, but further tests later on do seem to show that the problem is me, not the gun.

[Bob259]

Yeah, I guess I take it for granted and assume anyone should know well enough to confirm the gun zero before assuming the problem is technique. I sighted my gun on paper immediately prior to my first HP match two weeks ago and then proceeded to shoot low on most targets during the match. I adjusted my point of aim, as I mentioned, to compensate during the match, but further tests later on do seem to show that the problem is me, not the gun.

It usually is the shooter, the rifle, in most cases, will out shoot the weakest link.... the shooter ;) . Shoot paper standing to see where you are shooting standing, most people do not shoot their bench sightings when standing (usually lower in most cases)

[dustinflint]

It's not necessarily a flinch. it could just be the difference in your bench zero and your offhand zero - They are not necessarily the same. Try adjusting your settings to account for it and see how that works.

Other than that, if you do have a flinch or you just tend to miss low and right, you'll just have to practice to correct the flinch or refine your shot.

Dustin

[jrebelo]

It's not necessarily a flinch. it could just be the difference in your bench zero and your offhand zero - They are not necessarily the same. Try adjusting your settings to account for it and see how that works.

Other than that, if you do have a flinch or you just tend to miss low and right, you'll just have to practice to correct the flinch or refine your shot.

Dustin

Would bench zero and off-hand zero be different just because of the 2-3 foot elevation difference between the gun on the bench and the gun on my shoulder?

[Bob259]

Would bench zero and off-hand zero be different just because of the 2-3 foot elevation difference between the gun on the bench and the gun on my shoulder?

No, it probably is how you follow through on the shot. To test for a flinch have some on else load your magazine (no looking) and use a dummy round, if you have a flinch you'll see it real fast when you pull the trigger.

[dustinflint]

Would bench zero and off-hand zero be different just because of the 2-3 foot elevation difference between the gun on the bench and the gun on my shoulder?

No, it doesnt have anything to do with the elevation of the rifle. It's just that you're adding all kinds of new variables when you pick up a rifle and shoot it offhand. The zeros can vary from bench to shooter or from shooter to shooter. Also, some rifles have different zeroes from bench to shooter and some dont. Both of my .22 rifles seem to shoot to the same POI off the bench as they do offhand, but my air rifles (especially my springers) are WAY off.

If you're able to shoot paper offhand well enough to see a pattern in your shots (right and low) then you have a good enough hold to zero your rifle offhand. Just get it close on the bench then fine-tune it offhand to the point that you're hitting where you are breaking the shot. Once you get the offhand zero down, forget about the bench zero.

Dustin

[Snake]

Given that I have a flinch and have had off and on for years I can only tell you what i learned and if it helped. There are essentially two kinds...1) an avoidance flinch where you jerk away from the trigger cause that perfect sight picture changed or the 2) anticipatory flinch where you jerk the rifle as your pulling the trigger in anticipation of noise and/or recoil. On no.2 you probably close your eyes as the rifle is firing. Both come about because you and i try to think our way to hitting our target...thinking is often confused with concentration Try hitting a baseball by 'concentrating' or thinking...you can't cause all eye -hand activities are essentially instinctive. To solve your problem try relaxing, don't try so hard, and prepare at home by doing lots and lots of dry firing....i focus on the neighbors electric meter and I watch where my dot goes when I pull the trigger. Dry firing requires the same neurological paths as actual shooting...the better their engraved the better the real thing. Next plan to shoot a whole bunch before the match...zero off hand with a good spotter...and get at least 15-20 rounds down range before a match...a little fatigue helps...and good luck By the way a bench zero is only necessary if you have had scope issues...the bench produces the wrong expectation...the perfect sight picture....then when you shoot standing...you try to recapture that bench sight picture...which will doom you....you will become flinch-king

[Dee]

As mentioned check your offhand zero and also make sure you aren't lifting your head as the shot breaks. Also make sure you aren't pulling down with sympathetic movement of the non trigger fingers wrapped around the pistol grip. You could be tightening the grip anticipating the shot and not even realize it. So try and make sure the only finger that has a change in pressure on the gun is the one on the trigger. Just don't think about the recoil at all since you know it's coming when you pull the trigger and dry fire as mentioned to help you get an idea of what is going on when that sear breaks with your sight picture. Oh and buy a good 10m airgun to practice at home cheaply. I would also adjust that trigger all the way down to right over 2 lbs as close as possible.

Dee

[jrebelo]

Thanks for all of the feedback, folks. I love this forum!

Dry-fire practice is something that I know I should be doing but I am always too lazy to finally get around to doing it. I think I'll throw a snap cap in there tonight and do a bit of practice. Thanks for that and the other tips, it's all very helpful and gives me a lot to think about with just under two weeks to my second match.

[jrebelo]

Here's the target I shot yesterday. My initial shots are the ones you see at the base of the legs. I had one or two really bad dropped shots that didn't make it onto the cardboard, but as I went through the series, I started breaking my shots over the back of the chicken and this is where you can see I started to get centre-mass shots.

[dustinflint]

Just adjust your scope.

Dustin

[Innocent]

Dustin,
Low right groups could be...incorrect finger placement on the trigger, jerking or possibly too much hand pressure on the stock. Some flinching can cause some left side shots, a result of anticipation.
Dropping low shots especially in high power is probably more likely due to shot anticipation. The best training for that is the course of having someone else load the rifle for you, with some dummy rounds, so you don't know what you are going to deal with in recoil. Air rifle will do a lot in helping position, hold and any trigger problems but it does almost nothing for dealing with recoil 'shock' of high power.

Mary

[lone ringer]

A lot of good advice given here. I will add my two cents by telling you to use good ear plugs and ear muffs in case you are not already doing that since you do not want to flinch due to loud noises.

Another thing I can recommend is that you reduce the size of your aim by maybe going up 2.5 min of elevation and aiming at the chicken leg instead of aiming at the whole chicken with time you may be able to pick at a point inside the targets but as a beginner it can only help if you aim 6 O'clock or 12 O'clock on some of targets I would suggest 6 O'clock on the birds and 12 O'clock on the other two.