Smallbore Nationals - Ammo

[PaulG]

Thanks to PhxShooter for posting the link for the Silhouette Nationals.

I note that in the equipment list for smallbore lever, Federal ammo is the choice by a large margin. That raises a couple of questions. Is there a particular reason for Federal's popularity? And, which types of Federal .22s are represented?

I'm fairly new at the lever games, but my observation from other forms of smallbore competition is that there is wide variation in ammo preferences, even within a particular discipline. I've seen cheap bulk ammo at demanding long range events, and folks who shoot Eley Tenex at 40 meter chickens.

Paul

[boats]

That list only shows each type of ammo used, not what the winners used.

Having said that many use 2nd level ammo for CLA rifles. Target is fairly large so precesion needed for Smallbore silhouette is not as important. I gave up on best ammo for Rimfire CLA cause target ammo would not knock over our Rams. Went to Winchester T22 SV for CPT Winchester High Speed for Rams. Is it better ? no but goes off every time no extraction issues like bulk ammo often has.

Main thing for me is no flyers or misfires even if the group size is a bit larger. My two Marlins with T22 group a little over 1 inch at the Pig line. HS stays under 3 inches at the Ram line. Could probably cut that in half with good target ammo. 1 1/2 Moa iron sight Marlin would be a very good CLA rifle.

Boats

[jnyork]

IMHO, expensive target ammo is largely a waste of money in this game , whereas smallbore silhouette shooters would profit from using it after they reach AAA or so. Federal makes very dependable ammo, their Automatch costs only about 14 bucks for a box of 325 at your local Wally World and is plenty good enough. I know some that shoot Wolf MT or Wolf Match Extra, but they dont score any higher than anyone else. When you get so you can outshoot the Automatch, let me know. One of the nicer things about the lever action game is that we dont have to spend large in order to get into the winners circle, that also applies to the ammo. 98% shooter, 2% equipment, just like it should be.

[PaulG]

Thanks for the replies. That's fairly consistent with my impressions and thoughts on the subject.

My impression, not yet tested with any degree of experimental control, is that some lots of Automatch are better than others, which has long been the conventional wisdom with most cheap ammo. It seemed to be the case with Federal Lightning or 510. Some lots shot great, others not so much.

For some reason the Wallyworlds around here in central Iowa don't carry AM, although they did some time in the past. I pick it up when they have it in stock at WM in Omaha, when I visit my son, aka shooting partner.

Paul

[boats]

Federal 711 B was my go to cheap ammo, Lately it shows a lot of duds. Our Matches any Remington is suspect. My advice is forget wally world and lay in a good supply of something that works well from one of the mail order suppliers.

Ultimate performace is not required but duds or missfires are a no go, even at AA level matches are often won or lost by single shots. Been through 3 bricks of T22 and comfortable with ordering a case from Champion shooters. About 3 bucks a box

Boats

[PaulG]

I haven't tried Federal 711 lately, but my earlier experiences with it were not good, very inaccurate. It's also been many years since I shot T-22, but perhaps it's time to try it again.

Depends on one's priorities and budget, but IMO it's not a question of Walmart vs. mail order sourced ammo, but your goals. I am perfectly happy with decent bulk ammo for practice and even some matches, if it is a known batch that shoots to my standards. When I invest in traveling to a match, which unfortunately is always the case given where I live, ammo cost is the least of my concerns. If I lived where I could shoot local matches regularly, I would be more inclined to economize on ammo.

Paul

[boats]

Thing about Wal Mart or any of the discount retail places is supply is spotty sometimes they have it sometimes they don't.

Silhouette zeros are so important it's best to work them up carefully on paper then stick with the same ammo for a season. When I have to change always go back to the range shoot long run groups offhand on paper each distance, 10 shot mimimum 20 even better. Figure center of impact and adjust. I ran a old 6 brick lot of RWS Pistol Match for a while in the 39A and one of my Schutzen rifles. Ran low was not performing well on Rams so went to the Winchester. Even the Pig zero is 2 moa off RWS vs Winchester. More on the Ram's. Realy notice it on the paper 100 yard Schuetzen target.

Confident of your zeros you can use the match sight in period to get warmed up see how much wind is running etc, don't have to question elevations. Buy case at a time it's very likely to be the same match after match. This is more important to me than smallest short run group. Buy or hand load for CF rifles only changes I make are end of the year before the new season starts. We shoot year round so it's after Christmas before New years, Makes the cut then it's going the season with me.

Boats

[Tlee]

Paul -

I use a LOT of Federal AutoMatch and 510 in both Henry H001Ts and my Marlin 39A. I'll occasionally use a plated version (Federal 710, I THINK), depending on what's available and cheap. Both are high velocity and work well. They all group 3" or better at 100m out of all my guns. For SBCLA I quit using Wolf and Eley a long time ago as neither would reliably take down a SB halfscale Ram with center hits (I save the Wolf and Eley for a Ruger 77/22 I have that will ONLY shoot it accurately).

I will say that high velocity 22LR ammo is a must for the SBCLA Rams at Raton... I've used standard velocity quite successfully on a lot of ranges, but it seems to consistently leave Rams at Raton and one local club. I even lost a Ram using high velocity ammo at both last year and this year's Raton Lever gun Nationals. They were both center shoulder/body hits with a slight amount of wind in my face. In both cases I had the range personel check to make sure it was a SBCLA Ram target and that someone hadn't left a PCCLA target on the rail. In both cases they were SB thickness targets.

My .02,

-Tim

[PaulG]

Good info. Thanks Tim.

About knock down. I've been shooting silhouette in one form or another since 1976, and have seen some strange things happen.

At a BPCR match in Tucson this past winter I watched through my scope as my shooter hit a chicken about 1.5" from the edge of the breast with a .40-70 Sharps Straight, and it never moved! I saw the bullet impact as clear as could be through my scope. Splat! When he went down to set his targets, he said the chicken had rotated just a bit. Nothing odd about the setup, no clamps, strong wind, or any of the usual suspicious factors.

If I heard this story without seeing it with my own eyes, I would have had a hard time believing it.

Paul

[44 mag]

Here is my 2 cents. I use the Fed 719 Gold medal match (1200fps) on pigs and rams and SK Standard Plus on chicks and turks. The 719 is A very good ammo and not to bad priced ($40/Brick). As Tim said you need the high velocity for the rams and I have also rang A few pigs with standard velocity. That being said the Lapua Center-X (1073 fps) would be my choice for this game and I have tried it several times and never rang A ram or pig. It is just fast enough and accurate enough for all animals. When I run out of the 2 kinds I have now I will be switching. The 719 in my eyes is just not accurate enough for chicks and turks. Just my humble oppinion. Mike

[PaulG]

Mike, I'm confused. You say you need HV for the rams, and have even rung pigs with standard velocity, yet you say that Center-X at 1073 is accurate and fast enough for all animals. 1073 fps is within the range of standard match ammo such as most lots of Eley. 1200 fps like Federal HV Match or Automatch seems to be kind of mid-velocity, higher than conventional match ammo but lower than the common HV stuff. Seems like a good compromise, provided that accuracy is adequate.

I suppose it comes down to choices and priorities.

Also, I understand the principle in choosing ammo and buying it in quantity and sticking with it for the sake of consistency and familiarity, but I'm having hard time believing that you can count on elevation settings across different ranges and even on different days on the same ranges. That has never been the case for me in any of the silhouette disciplines I have participated in over the years. Without fine tuning your settings the day of the match, you risk losing points. At least with BPCR silhouette, you get sighter shots within the time alloted for your record string. You sure need them.

Paul

[the ex pom]

Paul I use federal champion/automatch here in Australia. I have never had a problem on rams even when we had some thick rams as practice targets (1/4" instead of 3/16") I think people get too caught up in "minute of angle accuracy". My gun shoots federal "minute of ram"(about 3-4" at 100) if I do my bit and hold in the right spot and release properly then the ram is dead.

Dave McCarthy

[boats]

You are right elevations change range to range and ambient temp too. I keep in my log book elevations used in every match. Silhouette ranges are rarely measured with precesion, Have as much as 2 moa Variance one club to another. Temp with Rimfires my books show another MOA cold day to hot day. Using the same brand & lot cuts one of the variables. Sight in look for the wind and re-confirm elevations.

Boats

[44 mag]

Paul,I guess I miss spoke in my reply. The SK Standard is only 1050fps and that is not enough for pigs and rams but the center-x is 1073fps and that seemed to work ok. As for your site settings I always shoot the day before or in the morning before the match to check things. I stopped shooting the cheaper stuff due to flyers and hell some of them even sounded different. With the size of these targets you dont have to shoot the top of the line match ammo it is just somthing I prefer to do. Its bad enough when you miss because of somthing you did let alone A ammo issue. Mike

[PaulG]

With the size of these targets you dont have to shoot the top of the line match ammo it is just somthing I prefer to do. Its bad enough when you miss because of somthing you did let alone A ammo issue. Mike

I can sure relate to that!

I agree with most of what has been posted in response to my original inquiry. If I were in the mood and had more coffee in my system this morning, I could offer a statistical theory of accuracy and silhouettes, but it does come down to personal standards and priorities. IMO, just as a girl can't be too pretty, a rifle and its ammo can't be too accurate, but there are realities and trade-offs, and diminishing returns.

Mike, it's hard for me to see how about 25 fps could make a significant difference in knock-down reliability, especially since velocities are averages, but I'll defer to your experience. Looks like around 1200 fps is about optimal.

Paul