Smallbore ammunition

[RugaShuta]

According to the latest rule book I have the only ammunition which is NOT ALLOWED in smallbore Silhouette shooting is CCI STINGERS, these have a muzzle velocity in excess of 1500 fps (see Rule 3.17 in NRA Rule book) The reason I say this is because last week at a smallbore silhouette match I overheard a discussion between two shooters concerning the use of "high Velocity" ammo, the ammo in question was Federal 510, muzzle velocity of 1265 fps according to manufacturers site.
One shooter claimed this ammo would damage the targets, I have fired about 7,000 rounds of this stuff through my CZ 452 and my Ruger 10/22 at the targets I bought from Ray up in N.C. with no damage. One shooter stated flatly that anyone using that "high velocity" ammo would be barred from shooting in matches, the same shooter stated that the NRA rules said so but I fail to find any rule like that . The only thing I can find relating to ammo is that "stingers" are not allowed. Any opinions out there on this subject??

[ajj]

As I recall, the rules bar only "hyper" vel ammo, such as Stingers, but do not set a specific velocity limit. Ordinary "High Velocity" ammo, meaning in the 1200 fps range, is legal but there is no reason to use it. It's pushed around more by the wind, the supersonic crack may annoy other competitors and it's unlikely to be as accurate as subsonic, target-grade ammo.
Damage to the cast-iron smallbore targets tends to be cumulative. You may not see dimples on the surface, but they eventually crack. The chicken gets hit with the highest velocity and ordinarily cracks in the leg. The ram will lose part of his horns. (The ram is thinner.) Ray's targets are reinforced in both these areas and are very sturdy but there is just no reason to use "Hi-Vel" ammo in silhouette. (I always suspect that the people who tell you that their rifle shoots better with HV ammo than with target velocity tried about one lot of each.)

[jneihouse]

Rather than give a list of "banned" ammo, I think the rule book lists Stingers as an example of a round not allowed due to target damage. I believe that target damage is the reason for the rule (George help me out here if I'm not correct) because there is no advantage to using the hi velocity or hyper velocity ammo in smallbore silhouette. At our range (Old Fort Gun Club, Fort Smith, AR) we ask that shooters not use high velocity rounds because of target damage. We use Ray's targets at our matches and have had a few break (turkey lost it's tail this weekend) even with standard velocity rounds. Ray warrants his targets so they are easily replaced, but we don't want to break more than we have too. You won't make many friends if you show up at a match and insist on using high velocity ammo.

Kitty

[RugaShuta]

Kitty,
Thanks for the fast reply. I prefer Wolf MT my self but I was just curious if the stuff like Federal 510 is in fact banned, rather than just strongly frowned upon. I think both parties were correct in this case. I would also suggest that shooters brush up on the rules governing our sport and read what is printed on the page rather than what they percieve to be there. Once again thanks for the response.

[GeoNLR]

3.17 "...The use of any other type ammunition (as in ANY other than that specifcly banned) may be prohibited by local range or tournament regulations. Loads that damage targets may be disapproved by the Chief Range Officer, Match Director, or Jury."

This is the last sentence in the rule you quoted. When you have a question about the rules, you have to read through the different diciplines as 3.17 started talking about air rifles and may have lost you. But the sentence above is the last sentance and stands on it's own.

As a match director (many of us here are so I'm not saying that as some kinda badge) and a local group, we try to let new shooters slide a little on this as opposed to scare them off, But long term, we have people move away from the hiviz stuff. It just doesn't make any sense to shoot the hiviz stuff. If cost is a factor, there are plenty of ~$1.00 a box "standard velocity" ammo out there that will do just as good a job at RAMS. We have to deal with complaints from other shooters and target damage that adds up over time as AJJ stated.

Spend some time on the bench with some standard velocity, you will prob find out that this "Problem" will be a good thing for you and your shooting long term. Less noice, recoil, less evil eyes from friends shooting 5 feet from you (i.e. Drama), and so on....

Good luck,

Chicken

[RugaShuta]

George,
The point I am trying to make is that the first shooter flatly stated the high velocity ammo was banned by the NRA, not a true statement on that shooters part. Anyway as I said I prefer Wolf MT for matches but I have fired a lot of that Federal stuff with no adverse effects on my swinger targets. In any case it was no big deal, just a mis-statement by a shooter, and I am sure many of us are guilty of the same offense.

[BlauBear]

We experimented with high velocity (1200 fps) ammunition earlier this year and found some of it shoots pretty well, and I still have some to use up, but, I really don't like the stuff. It's just less pleasant to shoot with for all the reasons listed above.

Having said that, I'm still cranky that Eley has dropped Practice 100, while S&K and Wolf supplies are sporadic and their prices are rising. Live and learn - next time I find something good to practice with at a reasonable price I will buy a case of it, if not a pallet.

[Innocent]

Let us clarify some stuff posted by Ruga Shooter here.

One it was me that objected to high velocity ammo being used on smallbore targets that are set up beside pistol silhouette targets for the use of smallbore shooters wishing to train. These targets were donated by certain individuals wishing to train while also assisting others in learning the sport on the larger targets.

After thirty years of smallbore silhouette shooting I believe that I have seen enough damage to smallbore targets to warrant what I was stating that stingers, high velocity.... ammo causes problems with even Ray's targets. I believe that I have over 20 animals in my possession that have some form of damage caused by hotter than necessary ammo. As the afore mentioned targets were donated by an individual wishing to train, I believe that the request to refrain from using high velocity ammo is valid. Also standard velocity ammo was offered to the shooter at no cost, and this shooter has shot on this range previously, and was aware from previous times that high velocity ammo was not to be used on the smallbore targets, he opted to shoot the larger targets rather than switch ammo.

Further this person raising the question here and stating that he prefers to use Wolf ammo anyway has been banned from at least two ranges in Central Florida area that I am aware of for having an expolsive uncontrollable temper and causing unnecessary grief and using excessivley foul language in highpower matches. He also has a reputation of attempting to bad mouth individuals via email and phone calls.

Mary Watkins

[RugaShuta]

Mary,
Check your pm's

[dryfire]

RugaShuta
Without stepping into an apparent hornet's nest you mentioned that your hi-vel ammo had no perceived effect on your swingers. The structure of the swinger targets causes much of the energy of impact to be absorbed thru the mechanism whereas stand alone targets absorb all the energy
causing eventual breakage.
Some thing that we also must remember when we are shooting at any range is as the old saying goes "When in Rome do as the Romans do".
Not every range follows the rules explicitly and some of the rules are in place as an advisory, to be enforced with vigour if need be. We have to guide ourselves accordingly.
Regards
Andrew Patchett

[RugaShuta]

Andrew,
When I am in Rome I do as the Romans do, The last time I shot that Federal 510 in a match was last year when i was still shooting my 10/22 . Since that time I have acquired 3 CZ'S and a Savage/Anschutz Model 54 Sporter and all I shoot in 2 of the CZ's and the Savage/Annie is Wolf MT. The ammo being used this past week was by a new rifle shooter in my practice CZ 452, I was shooting the S/A which I have been doing for several months and slowly but surely my scores are creeping up. AS for what Mary posted, I did get banned from a club after I resigned, too many "nazis" there for me, anyway I don't worry about those people because they don't send me my social security or my military retirement checks, therefore they are , shall I say, of no consequence to me. Have a nice day and hold 'em hard and squeeze 'em easy. Maybe I will see you at a match someday.

[Jason]

The only rounds that we expressly forbid at my home range are the "hyper velocity" rounds like Stingers and Velocitors that the NRA rules forbid. It's the same for the smallbore targets as for the smallbore cowboy targets. We very rarely get target damage on our smallbore targets and I'd guess that around half the shooters are shooting ammo around 1200fps. I also don't notice the final hit on the few targets that get damaged being more often from high velocity rounds than standard velocity, but as has already been said the damage could be from the cumulative effect of all of the shots the targets have taken. To top it off, at least one or two of the top scores (mid-upper 40s in a 60-shot match) are shot with the high velocity ammo.

I only shoot target velocity ammo in my CZ and 1712 in standard smallbore matches, but I've left rams standing that I had good hits on with both standard velocity rounds and high velocity (automatch, lightning, blazer) rounds in the smallbore cowboy lever action matches. To top it off, the ammo that my smallbore cowboy rifle shoots best is the CCI Velocitors. Oh well, sucks for me but we stick to the rules. As a test, though, I was given a smallbore cowboy ram from another range that had been accidentally left out and an unnamed range member had shot the head up really badly with a .223. I shot a full box of 50 rounds of Velocitor ammo into it at 25yds to see if it would actually damage it and never had so much as a dimple or hairline crack. To be honest, I did the test more more than anything else as a test of whether or not we should take a hard line at a cowboy match if a new shooters showed up with only Velocitors that they had already sighted in with and didn't want to accept other ammo that we'd offer to them. We don't get a lot of participation at our cowboy matches and I'd hate to lose a potential regular shooter to an issue like that, so now I'd be ok with letting them slide for one match if they promised to sight in with something slower for next time. Note that this test was not done with a 1/5 scale smallbore target but with the 1/2 scale smallbore cowboy target and I assume the results could and would be different.

With all of that said, the only rounds not allowed at any NRA-sanctioned smallbore matches are the hyper velocity rounds. Each range has the right and full NRA support in not allowing high velocity rounds if they so choose. If you are not willing to abide by the individual range's rule on that, don't be surprised if they are not willing to let you shoot in matches there.

[ajj]

Our cowboy targets are steel. The smallbore targets are cast iron.

[BlauBear]

If local clubs have banned high velocity, the issue of damage to targets is moot. I will definitely use only standard velocity for sighting in and practice rather than risk getting to match that disallows the ammunition I'm acclimated to. They might let me shoot anyway out of courtesy, but why put a host in that position? Seems like bad manners on my part.

[GeoNLR]

We very rarely get target damage on our smallbore targets and I'd guess that around half the shooters are shooting ammo around 1200fps. .

What type of targets do you guys use? When I shot the CB cup last year they were like no other I had ever seen anywhere in the country. Granted I see mostly Shafer targets and Varn made them for awhile. But aren't your SB targets 3/8" or 1/2" thick steel??? It looks like what a guy at our local range went to after our steel swingers were getting shot up by HMR's. I'm no metal guy, Iceman (Leroy) was the guy at our range that put the first one's up that got shot up. He can also speak to the type and thickness that we replaced them with, but they seem to be holding up to the locals that want to plink at them and try to tear them up. I would not doubt your targets will take the abuse you mentioned, they are some tough little critters. I did miss the typical "feet" that are on the Schafer targets, was a little different.

As you mentioned, if the local club doesn't allow it, that is covered by the rules and it's about all that is needed to be said as far as "Can I, or Can't I"....