Personal Accuracy Capabilities - Offhand

[Terror!]

We have all seen the threads asking how accurate the rifle/ammo combination needs to be, and what is acceptable and what is not. In these thread, the shooter is always asking from a bench-rest shooter's point of view. For silhouette, I believe this to be a bit of a mute point, because "groups" fired in the silhouette game are shot in the offhand. Now, this means that the group fired in the offhand will always be larger than the group was when it was fired from the bench. This is not the point behind my thread though...

I am here sitting at my desk (wishing I was out shooting) and I cannot help but wonder what is "acceptable" accuracy for the rest of you shooters while in the offhand? Going back to BR vs. Silo; a BR shooter knows how well they need to shoot with a given rifle and ammo combination, however the Silo shooter typically shoots at steel targets and is scored on a hit or miss basis.

So, for those of you who practice on paper targets to track your group size; what is acceptable accuracy for Silhouette? A lot of us newbies to the sport may be too ashamed to even be able to call them groups, but regardless of the size, how well do you shoot in position?

I have been trying to think of a goal to set for myself. But I am one of those people that needs empirical data to track my progress. Let's say when I first started I could only drop three chickens. Then two months later I'm consistently hitting 5 chickens. I want to know WHY. If it is consistent, then I have obviously improved. But just knowing I improved is not good enough. I want to know how much I improved over that period of time. So by shooting groups, we can track that progress. Much like the bench-rest shooter does.

But, for those of you shooting consistent A, AA, AAA scores; how well do you group on paper? Someday I hope to be shooting AAA. It is going to take longer than I know and I'm sure i'll be humbled along the entire journey. But as I stand right now, I can shoot in the area of a 3" group at 50 yards. That is nothing to be proud of I know, but I am a beginner and I'm making progress albeit very slowly. I have decided that those of you shooting AAA scores must be able to shoot within the largest section of each animal's body. Therefore, you must be able to shoot in the whereabouts of 1.5" @ 40 Meters, 2.1" @ 60 Meters, 2.5" @ 77 Meters, and 3.8" @ 100 Meters. I am guessing entirely on those numbers but if there's any truth to what I have guessed, then you are some very fine marksman indeed and I hope to join your ranks someday in the very distant future after many thousands of rounds sent downrange!

But back to the overall purpose of this thread: Regardless of what class you shoot in, please give me some idea as to how accurately you currently shoot in the offhand, and what your overall goal is in this sport. And keep in mind, I'm not asking for your number of downed chickens. I am asking for your actual average group size and the distances they are shot at. Including your Class might be helpful as well, to get a good feel for the level of shooter you currently are.

Personally, my name is Dylan and I am still currently not ranked in Silhouette. I can typically shoot a 3" (+/-) group at 50 Yards.

Thank you all for reading,
-Dylan

[crosssection]

What is acceptable is up to you. If you call a shot with the dot just inside the animal, and the shot hits on call, then that is acceptable. If you want that to happen every shot, then the bench group size needs to be less than or equal to the dot size, in minutes of angle (moa). If the shot goes over the animal by a little, and if that is not acceptable to you, then you may want to change something--either your offhand technique or the bench group size. You need to be able to call your offhand shots.

[Terror!]

Thank you for the reply. I stated where I am, and where I want to be. I know what is acceptable to me already, but I want to know what the rest of this forum is capable of. I know we have a wide range of talent on this board. I just want to know where the rest of the shooters are as far as offhand accuracy.

Respectfully,
-Dylan

[malinois]

well we have a few national champions here....and a couple that have shot 40's as well....There are a few post listed that get into trainning to reduce the area of wobble which really is what you are looking to do combined with shot call and release. As for accuracy if my rifle can put its shots on the dot I am happy.

[cslcAl]

Terror, I think what you are looking for is not a normal practice for silhouette shooters. I have been shooting and training with a nationally ranked shooter for the past 12 years, and I can't remember one time where we deliberately shot offhand for group size. It is much more important to us that we break the shot at a place on the target we want and follow through properly to hit that spot. However most of the time we practice HP shooting at swingers and we do wind up shooting some nice groups but never measure them. There is a big difference between shooting silhouette targets and bullseye targets also. Because silhouette targets are so asymetrical it is hard for your eye to focus on the center. On a bullseye your eye will have a tendancy to naturally focus on the center or X ring. If you want to practice shooting offhand groups, I would recomend you shoot your 22 at 50 ft bulseye targets. In competition you typically only shoot 1 shot at each target, but you could shoot groups if you want. If you can place 5 shots inside the 9 ring, that would be pretty good. Inside the 10 ring would be great. Al Foust

[hugh]

I saw one of those top shooters put 10 shots at 100M into a 1 1/2 inch circle. It seems to be like all athletes, there are those who just can do it on another level and then there's the hackers like me. I practice several days a week, yet my scores only creep up. I know this shooter doesn't practice much at all and can perform on demand, at a level I only dream about. Good luck.

hugh

[Jerry G]

What is acceptable is a moving target. Pardon the pun. As we move up through the classes our groups get tighter and tighter. Don't just have one goal because if it is a real high target you may never accheive it. You need to keep advancing at least two goals so as soon as you achieve one you have another step to do on your way to being a AAA or master. If you have only one goal, like getting ten-in-a-row chickens, you will let up as soon as you achieve that one. I did that at the nationals one year and as soon as I got the 10 that I was working on, my whole body shut down and I couldn't find my ass with both hands after that.

If you are setting a goal, keep in mind that there are short term goals and long term goals. Your short term goal should be to shoot top scores in your class. Your next goal should be to shoot acceptable scores in the next class up. Your ultimate goal is to shoot master. If shooting master is your only goal, you may quit on the way because it is too big of a step for someone that is clasified B or A.

I hope this makes sense because it is a little hard to explain.

[lone ringer]

Terror, the main thing that attracts shooters to metallic silhouette shooting is the instant gratification of shooting a target and hearing and seeing something happen. Most of us die hard shooters do not like shooting paper targets because its boring. I am not saying that it is not a good idea or a great tool for training but really having a choice between one and the other a large percentage of silhouette shooters would choose to shoot at metal targets or gongs that is why we got involved with the sport to begin with.
If we had a competition where our groups would be measured I am sure that you would see some outstanding groups shot by a few of us but most would be disappointed with the size of their groups specially those shot at the longer distances.
Like Al said we are more concerned with breaking the shots in a certain part of the target than trying to figure out how small or large our offhand groups are.
You are going to have a hard time finding anybody that will tell you what their capabilities as far as shooting off hand groups size is concerned but their rankings at important matches would tell you how good they are.
One thing I can tell you and that is that I have noticed that during practice time before and after the matches seems like a lot of shooters ability is much better than when the match gets under way. During practice we spend more time going forward resetting targets than the time it takes us to knock them down. What I am saying is that you may have the ability and the technique but if you do not have it together in your head your progress as a rifle silhouette shooter will be a lot slower. Hope this helps you to understand our mentality or at least mine.

[Jason]

Acceptable accuracy for me is having the bullet hit the target right where the dot was. When I've tested my rifle/ammo combo for groups at 100 meters, I can usually put them five into an inch or less center-to-center off my benchrest gear with no wind. I'll occasionally have a flyer in a group that takes it over an inch due to my technique not being able to overcome the fact that I'm using a silhouette stock instead of a benchrest stock. I'll also occasionally have a group to brag about, but anyone who competes knows that any gun can occasionally shoot a really good group. For me, I want the best accuracy that I can afford but not at the cost of more important factors like fit of the gun to the shooter, reliable tracking of the scope, etc. I usually shoot low to mid master scores, and have never shot higher than 38/40 in an NRA-sanctioned match. As Tony said, this game is played between the ears of the shooters, and I have often shot more than I remember in a row in practice. When I don't have my focus right or I let a mechanical problem rattle my concentration, I can easily drop down to mid-AAA scores. When I am on, I have shot groups offhand similar to my benchrest gear. At a practice before one of the big matches at Pe Ell, WA, I was on so well that I was turning animals on purpose (and called it ahead of time to make sure I had witnesses). That's rare, though. As I said, I'm usually only low to mid-master.

[CZforlife]

I hear ya on that Jason. I'm newer to the sport, just a little over a year, my best score being a 30, and there is alot to say about being "ON". When I shot my 30 I had only cleared 13/20 on chickens and pigs, after I just released the pressure I normally put on myself I shot 7 turkeys and then cleared 10 rams! I guess the whole point is if you practice enough, you have the potential and just have to realize how to harness it. I dont really measure my groups for size in silhouette cause that is not what we are really judged on. All I know is that my misses that I am shooting now are a whole lot closer and I can now pretty much call every shot where I break it. I hope to break out of AAA this year. Bold goal, but if I personally don't make an extremely hard goal or challenge I get bored. Probably why I have been drawn to silhouette as much as I have. Just my 2 cents though!

[boats]

Like the other guys I don't keep track of my offhand groups, However it's a fair question, perhaps this photo will explain what we are saying. It's from our club 200 yard swinger match. CLA ram hung from Chains rifles are Iron sight either CLA Levers or BPCS rifles. It's not my relay I was scoring and snapped this picture. These spotting boards are very accurate indicators of group., Two spotters and one score keeper watching and marking with push pins.



Yellow shooter was 8/10 Nice group two high which is common with Post front irons when the light changes. White shooter was 7/10 Score just one off Yellows with a larger group and I suspect two jerked triggers off to the left. Red shooter was 3/10 His sights were adjusted too high missed a few over the back that would have been hits and jerked his trigger left and right, one of the right jerks hit the rams nose.

Point is while a small group is good no off shots makes the difference. It's consistency that counts. Guessing from the CLA rams size yellow put all 10 shots in 10 MOA



Boats

[Terror!]

Thank you all very much for the replies. I suppose I can say I learned something today, being that Silhouette shooters rarely, if ever, shoot for groups!

-Dylan

[CZforlife]

We shoot for groups, we just don't measure.

[lone ringer]

Thank you all very much for the replies. I suppose I can say I learned something today, being that Silhouette shooters rarely, if ever, shoot for groups!

-Dylan

Terror, silhouette shooters shoot for score same as most other competitions. Good groups shot outside of the target will get you nothing. I can't tell you how many times I have told someone that they had a very tight group but unfortunately most were not hits. On the other hand I and others I have spotted for have shot good scores when we were not holding that well but the targets kept falling even with marginal hits, that is the beauty of silhouette shooting a hit or a miss and no extra points for dead center hits. Ultimately the best shooter who has worked the hardest and left nothing to chance wins.

[ppkny]

Lone Ringer, You couldn't have said more in one sentence than all the paper that's been written about winning when you said, " Ultimately the best shooter who has worked the hardest and left nothing to chance wins".
ppkny