NO MORE FIBER OPTIC FRONT SIGHTS FOR COWBOY

[TXCharlie]

Noticed that the rule book has been changed with the deletion of "Fiber Optic"... These front sights were specifically allowed in the rulebook, now that is gone from the rulebook?? When was this rule changed? http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nra-rule-books.asp
When I started shooting this game, it was a surprise for me to find fiber optics allowed. Since they are/were specifically listed, I have used various versions since shooting my first SB Cowboy Silhouette match in April of 2001.

[Innocent]

ppkny, I agree that fiber optics are not a magnification, but if it is truly a big issue, then just add a catagory for them, like the pistol, with iron or scoped versions.
Mary

[Jason]

Can someone explain why fiber optics are needed? Even though we have our targets painted white, some of our shooters use posts with flat tops and just put the animal belly on top of the post and hammer the targets. One day when my eyes were particularly bad and I couldn't see my small bead insert, I swapped out the bead for a wide post and shot the match that way. My scores were within my normal range (34/40 for smallbore and 35/40 for PC, I think). Due to this thread, I painted one of my targets black and saw that my small bead insert did indeed disappear in the black target. Using the post insert, though, I could use the "6-o'clock" hold of sitting the belly of the animal on top of the post and it worked fine. Note that this is only one test in one lighting condition, but it didn't seem like that big of a deal especially if everyone has to deal with the same constraints. I doubt that there are many folks of any age whose eyes are worse than mine right now, as I'm currently undergoing some treatments for another eye issue and I can't even read the big bank numbers on the posts past pigs in smallbore/PC matches. My vision varies so much day-to-day that I can't get glasses to help right now, either. As another test, I took one of my bead inserts and carefully painted the bead at the top with white epoxy paint (purchased as "appliance touch-up paint") and then tried it outside. I didn't shoot here due to all the houses around, but I could see the white bead against the black target just fine.

I don't have a dog in this fight, as I only shoot at white targets and don't intend to go to the lever nationals any time soon. I think that saying that anyone needs fiber optic front sights to be able to shoot the match and that they might as well quit if they aren't allowed is a bit of an overreaction.

[lone ringer]

Mary, we already have three different matches in cowboy with 5 classes in each one of them if they were to double up on them to include fiber optic sights that would be the beginning of the end for Cowboy LA silhouette. The first ones that would scream bloody murder would be the match directors that would have to order twice the number of awards and then there would be the shooters that would want to shoot both matches with iron sights and fiber optic sights just to have a second chance at winning something.
Remember how hunting rifle class got started with scoped rifles? No definitely no more than what we already have even if they did completely away with fiber optics which I do not think they will do, they will limit us to use what is readily available and will try to disallow the custom jobs with fiber wrapping around front sights or along barrels, etc. Tony Tello

[TXCharlie]

Jason....
The targets at Whittington are painted black. Difficult or impossible to see the posts or dots on a black target.
When the berms are wet, white targets are impossible to see. A difficult problem to address for the match director as it is for the shooter trying to see the sights and target.

Tony...
What is "readily available and will try to disallow the custom jobs "....
Is this not the same rule we had with Hunter Rifle in SB and HP??? The Light Rifle class became Hunter Rifle in the late ‘80’s; it is today quite different today from where Hunter Rifle began.
Writing clear and concise rules, that are not up to interpretation, is a difficult task... as you are well aware of.
You have served on the committee for a long time, how would you suggest this issue be addressed. What is best for the NRA, Match Directors and especially the shooters?
Thanks,
Charlie

[Jason]

Jason....
The targets at Whittington are painted black. Difficult or impossible to see the posts or dots on a black target.
When the berms are wet, white targets are impossible to see. A difficult problem to address for the match director as it is for the shooter trying to see the sights and target.

Yep. I get that. That's why I painted one of my targets black so I could see what this was all about. With the "6-oclock" hold (that some, including Byron, use even on our white targets), I didn't have any trouble shooting the black target with the black post. Trying to use the bead in the animal like I usually do with the white targets didn't work well, though. Looking at the black target tonight with the white-painted bead insert tonight, comparing it to my uncovered fiber optic sight on another rifle only gave the fiber optic sight an advantage after the sun set and the light started getting low.

Our white targets, especially the rams, actually get very hard to see when our berm is very dry and the sun isn't yet on the front of the targets. We've considered painting them a different color but haven't done it yet, as the difficulty is the same for everyone so the scores are just a few lower on average on those days.

I am looking forward to the official ruling from the silhouette committee, but I still say that anyone requiring a fiber optic sight in anything other than a low light condition is an overstatement.

[lone ringer]

Jason....
The targets at Whittington are painted black. Difficult or impossible to see the posts or dots on a black target.
When the berms are wet, white targets are impossible to see. A difficult problem to address for the match director as it is for the shooter trying to see the sights and target.

Tony...
What is "readily available and will try to disallow the custom jobs "....
Is this not the same rule we had with Hunter Rifle in SB and HP??? The Light Rifle class became Hunter Rifle in the late ‘80’s; it is today quite different today from where Hunter Rifle began.
Writing clear and concise rules, that are not up to interpretation, is a difficult task... as you are well aware of.
You have served on the committee for a long time, how would you suggest this issue be addressed. What is best for the NRA, Match Directors and especially the shooters?
Thanks,
Charlie

Charlie, I was trying to convey the idea of not wanting to have two different categories for each gun. The hunting rifle class when it got started was for people that did not have silhouette rifles and wanted to shoot along side of us with their hunting rifles, back then the first couple of years before Light Rifle Class we did not have the option of shooting two rifles.

I do not know what is the best thing to do but letting people use equipment like the fiber optic front sights for several years, putting it on the rule book and then all of sudden for no particular reason somebody decides to disallow them by saying the NRA developed the sport to be shot with production guns and It is not in the best interest of the sport to start the equipment race on lever action rifles by allowing non-production sights. If that statement is true why in the hell did they not enforce their rules from the beginning? Hope this is not going to turn out into another "Chin Gun" fiasco

[Innocent]

Jason,
The use of fiber optic sights by some is primarily due to vision problems, while I hear your arguments, spend some time with someone who has gone blind suddenly and someone who is legally blind and hers developed over a 45 year period...then travel around and see some of the different conditions that these matches are shot in, and your whole perception of vision and contrasting targets will broaden. Raton is especially difficult because the lighting conditions are extreme there, you cannot see the targets in the morning, usually not until the after 9:30 or so are they starting to contrast the background. With the number of shooters the NRA can not start later in the morning, and similar problems start in late afternoon light as well.

Tony, I agree that we really shouldn't have a seperate catagory for fiber optic, but truly our best argument is that they have allowed it for several years and to suddenly disallow it without warning and to continue to disregard the competitors opinions is very typical of the tyranny of the organization. I do not have the same vision issues that a lot of people do, but I admit to aging some and have noticed that my eyes are not what they used to be, my time is coming, so I am willing to stand up against the tyranny as I believe that if they are willing to make 'medical exceptions' (wheel chair use) which I strongly promote they should make it as open as possible to all.
I offered the fiber optic catagory thought as a possible solution to the decision that they were an advantage, perhaps we need to go back to another governing body and get away from their tyranny over the competitive side altogether. I will admit that NRA's support of candidates in Florida at least (home of the dictatorial lobbist Marion Hammer) was to say the least very clearly an 'in bed' (using the lawyers description) situation. IT did not stop me from taking the time to research my candidates histories, but I know many who did not, the comprimising etc...oh welll lets not get on that soap box.
In short the NRA is not supporting the competition side of the sport, the political side is questionable, and the training side....maybe you all should have serious look at the Eddie Eagle program and ask yourself some questions about the underlying message. I have sat through one Refuse to be a Victim class, it can be taught in several different slants.....depending on the instructor.
Mary

[Tlee]

Jason,
The use of fiber optic sights by some is primarily due to vision problems, while I hear your arguments, spend some time with someone who has gone blind suddenly and someone who is legally blind and hers developed over a 45 year period...then travel around and see some of the different conditions that these matches are shot in, and your whole perception of vision and contrasting targets will broaden. Raton is especially difficult because the lighting conditions are extreme there, you cannot see the targets in the morning, usually not until the after 9:30 or so are they starting to contrast the background. ...(snip)

Amen on vision/contrast issues, ESPECIALLY at Raton! For several folks, myself included, the 1st bank of animals at the Whittington Center every morning on the SB/PCCLA line is pretty much a "shoot where you think the target is" rather than actually seeing them, ESPECIALLY on the turkeys and chickens! Add to this any vision issues at all and shooting (at least competitively) becomes a real challenge.

While my full strength eyeglass 'script hasn't changed hardly at all within the last 30+ years, my vision difficulties are related to retinal deterioration that comes with age (apparently only on some folks) and general eye fatigue. I usually have my vision checked on an annual basis, but more recently I'm having it checked on a monthly basis due to some retinal issues that have come up just since the Raton match.

Up until recently we had 2 local matches where I could shoot either Hunter Pistol or Lever Actions silhouettes. The match that has white animals, I can shoot well (by my class standards), using either a simple post or a bead. The match that has black animals... my ability to see the front sight with the lever action is VERY dependent upon the lighting, eye fatigue, the number of "eye floaters" I am seeing that particular day, along with which 'script eyeglasses I use, (I've 3 different 'scripts in varying strengths and which one is better all depends on the particular day). There have been days that I just could not see the front sight even marginally clear on black animals, regardless of what sight picture (usually a 6 o'clock hold) or anything else I tried, at least using standard post or bead sight inserts.

For me, a 1/4" to 1/2" long piece of fiber optic glued into a hole in the top of a Lyman 17 post makes a world of difference in contrasting where the top of the post is relative to the target (regardless of how well or poorly I can see the target). I tried using a longer piece of fiber optic outside of the Lyman hood, but could not see an appreciable difference in the brightness of the fiber dot on the post over what I can see with a short piece inside the globe. Even on overcast days I can see the shorter piece's fiber dot just fine.

I have also tried experimenting with painting the front sight inserts.... No benefit what so ever.... With the Lyman globe, EVERYTHING looks black regardless if I paint the insert black, white, neon pink, green, or orange, especially from underneath the firing line cover where we shoot from. The only way I see any color at all on a painted insert is to hold the gun with the sun directly to my back with the front sight/muzzle exactly 180 degrees from where the sun is in the sky.

my .02,

-Tim

[Tlee]

...(snip)
Our white targets, especially the rams, actually get very hard to see when our berm is very dry and the sun isn't yet on the front of the targets. We've considered painting them a different color but haven't done it yet (snip)....

Jason -

At one range where I shoot white targets, we sometimes have a contrast issue with the dirt berms behind them, especially on sunny days. Rather than painting the targets a different color (which can affect some folks sight settings), you can actually darken the dirt berm by using a mix of powdered concrete dye and water. We found that a mix of a couple cups of brown or black concrete dye to about 10-20 gallons of water sprayed on the dirt berms, the contrast of the white target is really helped. We usually only have to do this once at the start of a particular day's match.

-Tim

[lone ringer]

...(snip)
Our white targets, especially the rams, actually get very hard to see when our berm is very dry and the sun isn't yet on the front of the targets. We've considered painting them a different color but haven't done it yet (snip)....

Jason -

At one range where I shoot white targets, we sometimes have a contrast issue with the dirt berms behind them, especially on sunny days. Rather than painting the targets a different color (which can affect some folks sight settings), you can actually darken the dirt berm by using a mix of powdered concrete dye and water. We found that a mix of a couple cups of brown or black concrete dye to about 10-20 gallons of water sprayed on the dirt berms, the contrast of the white target is really helped. We usually only have to do this once at the start of a particular day's match.

-Tim

Jason, that is a very good suggestion and it would solve the problems we have when shooting at Raton but to tell you the truth the last couple of years we were not able to get them to groom the berms at the Cowboy Nationals and when we start shooting at 8:00 AM the shadows from all the impacts around the targets in the berms make it almost impossible to see the targets, we have to pretty much aim at targets that we can't see. Makes it for an interesting match but that experience can't be duplicated at any range where I shoot and my scores at Raton are at least 5 points less per match than at home where we have excellent contrast between the targets and the berms.

[Jason]

We have had more than one match at our range where it would take binoculars to see clearly where the rams are against the dry dirt. At once match, I was very proud to get 7/10 targets where I was just having to estimate where the five targets would be between the bank number signs. I think we may be straying off topic, though. This thread is about contrast of the sight against the target instead of the target against the berm, though. Some obviously think that this is a very important issue, so it wouldn't be nice of us to go off on a tangent here even if we are at SteelChickens where it's expected.

[ppkny]

Thee, I little trick I used before I put the fiber optics on was making the INSIDE of the globe shield white. I tried it with surgicial tape first than I painted it. The white inside seem to help the post standout more by putting more light on it.
ppkny

[Tlee]

...(snip) I think we may be straying off topic, though. This thread is about contrast of the sight against the target instead of the target against the berm, though. (snip)...

Jason -

In order for me to have contrast between the sight and the target, I have to first LOCATE the target in front of the berm, LOL! I can tell you if it weren't for the T-post they were sitting on, I honestly couldn't have located the chickens on one of my morning SB/PCCLA relays at Raton this year.

Seriously though, IMHO, the contrast of the target can have everything to do with the sight selection. I prefer shooting a post and a 6o'clock hold on everything. However, one of the issues I've experienced a couple times shooting white targets with the lever action is TOO MUCH contrast. For me, a gloss or even flat white target against a black backstop (sometimes used on auto-resets) results in what I can only describe as a "glowing halo effect" that is downright annoying/distracting, even though I can usually shoot at black targets that aren't well focused against a dirt berm (assuming I can see them at all, LOL). I've decided the next time I have to shoot "glowing white" targets I'm gonna try the bead insert and shoot center mass to try to reduce the amount of white I'm seeing.

-Tim

[Tlee]

Thee, I little trick I used before I put the fiber optics on was making the INSIDE of the globe shield white. I tried it with surgicial tape first than I painted it. The white inside seem to help the post standout more by putting more light on it.
ppkny

PPK-

Hmmmm.... hadn't thought of that one! Wonder if NRA would consider painting sights or the inside of the globe a modification?

-Tim