NO MORE FIBER OPTIC FRONT SIGHTS FOR COWBOY

[Bob259]

Well said Tony!

[Cimarron Red]

As Tony has noted, Mr. Krei's reply to Al is typical of the uninformed response we've grown to expect from the reactionary NRA. "...and now to be competitive a person has to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars do modify their rifles. Any move away from standard production rifles will eliminate the person wanting to start shooting NRA competitions."
Where's the equipment race? Perhaps a couple of hundred dollars for a tang sight, $30 for a Lyman 17A, $3 for a strand of glass fiber?

And should Mr. Krei want to realize his mistaken notion that Cowboy Lever Action Silhouettes is losing popularity, let him change the rules to allow open barrel sights only!

In truth shooting programs are run by the NRA only for the benefit of the NRA with little regard to the needs/wishes of the shooters. 'Twas ever thus and ever thus shall be.

Regarding single-shot rifles, I would like to see them included but in a separate category not eligible for overall match winner as is currently done at the Golden Gun Club matches in Colorado (non-NRA approved, of course.)

[glen ring]

I have e-mailed the NRA Silhouette division and have received e-mails back in a couple of days. I think that the way the Lever Action Nationals are ran is GREAT! The crowd is a laid back bunch and the scenery at the Whittington center is marvelous. My wife started shooting at 50 in Lever Action because she found the shooters so friendly and we both have a great vacation ( our only one of the year ) shooting the Lever Action Nationals. The rules allow someone like her to go to Wal-mart , buy a Model 60 marlin semi-automatic 22lr and shoot in a National Championship! You all know that some folks would show up with a $10,000.00 single shot, double set trigger , 15 pound rifle if the rules allowed and that would discourage a lot of potential new shooters who can't afford to "keep up'. I'm in my mid 50's and my eyesight isn't what it was , but I still can rattle a few targets when I've had a good day. I don't think that fiber optic sights are a big deal nor would they improve my shooting. I'll make sure I know the rules and just follow them.

I was interested in IHMSA shooting at one time. The idea seemed like a good one. Shooting a hunting handgun at 200 yards. Good practice I thought. When I showed at the match I could see very expensive "Pistols " with 15 inch barrels, 24 power scopes and shooters laying prone. A perfect score was shot all day long by these guys. Not practical and not for me.
Lever Action , stock rifles with iron sights at 200 yards.....Standing! My kind of practical shooting. I've never seen a perfect score shot in Lever action Rifle, I've heard of a couple, but they are rare. I like that.

I would like to see a poll of folks that attended last years National Championship who would not shoot Lever Action Rifle again if they can't use fiber optic sights. I think that once shooters try this sport, enjoy it's simplicity, and meet some of the laid back folks, they'll be back again. Let's face it. The way some of us shoot, we'd be a lot skinnier if we had to do this for a living. With or without fiber optic sights.

[Tlee]

...(snip) Let's face it. The way some of us shoot, we'd be a lot skinnier if we had to do this for a living. With or without fiber optic sights.

LOL.... AMEN!

-Tim

[krgriggs]

Glen,
I have shot at the nationals in the last two years and plan on shooting in all the rest untill their last one or I am so longer able to travel. I love the sport. I shoot BPCR and cowboy silhouette but only shoot at the lever nationals. I shoot fibre optic sights and I do make my own custom sight which costs me about 5.00 and some time. I think we all just need to play on an equal playing field and the NRA will let us know what that is. I just need to know what it will be for next year so I can know what type of sights to put on my rifle for next years season. I just ask that is be crystal clear in the rules what is allowed and not allowed. With white targets I am finding I am shooting well with just a plain post sight, but with Raton's black targets that changes things alot. I do enjoy the Greg's way he handles the nationals and have to problem with the way the nationals are ran except for the present equipment rule confusion! I to thing we should keep things simple!

[Innocent]

Glen, I am glad you enjoyed the Nationals, sorry you can't get your wife to come into BJ's Shootin's shop when you are in Raton, some really good discussions go on there as they do in many gun shops all over the country. She could learn to enjoy the entire sport.
As for the fiber optics or not, this is not an issue of equipment race in any way, it is a matter of allowing some of thse with vision problems to compete. There seems to be a belief that there is an advantage to having fiber optic sights, I do not see any advantage, other than the psycological one that with a fiber wrapped around the barrel you can gather more light. Those individuals need to study light a little more...or maybe they don't, maybe they already know but are playing the psyc. game and winning there!!!
I have been in the silhouette game for 34 years and position for 6 years prior to that, I have seen some things that NRA has done that has killed the other disciplines that you have not had the opportunity to experience yet. While I could compete without fiber optics today, I would still avoid the nationals if they outlawed them because of my feelings towards those I know who could not because of a 'handicap' (their eyes not being as good as others). Any way you cut it the various interpretations we have recieved from the NRA competitions department, shows what many of us have been saying for a long time, that is they are not interested in promoting the sport, only in collecting the fees associated with 'sanctioning' a match, and making the money for their little portion of the kingdom....something you have not had direct contact with not having run matches and dealt with the politics that I have seen being on juries and match director, stat officer etc. It is time the NRA started responding to the needs of the people who are supporting them financially and taking the time to travel to matches and promote the sport, I might add that the position and prone matches have declined in numbers at about the same time as the silhouette sport start its decline...maybe it isn't the shooters, but something going on in the governing body? And BTW it was about the time USA shooting got started...wonder why?

Mary

[RBriscoe]

Mary, you touch upon the heart of the matter. Just what has the NRA done for the shooting sports? One might rephrase the question to "what has the NRA done to the shooting sports?"

Petty tyrants like Mr. Krei strike at the very substance of the American way of life. He rules by executive fiat, not the will of the people or by their consent. In my view, we would be better off without the likes of him and his maladministration.

Like many people, I have an opinion about the use of fiber optic sights. What concerns me most, however, is that the matter has been decided by someone other than the participants in the sport, without even the courtesy of notice that the matter was under consideration and behind closed doors. The rules making process is a virtual Star Chamber proceeding. Were the matter to have been decided by the shooting community, I would be prepared to accept the result even though I do not agree with it. As it is, how can anyone be pleased with a process which treats them as serfs?

There was a discussion a few years ago about starting an independent sanctioning body, unaffiliated with the NRA, but it turned out that the individual proposing it believed that it would somehow cause the NRA to become responsive to the desires of the shooters. He never really intended to establish the new sanctioning body. History demonstrated that the NRA took little note of the effort. Further, there seemed to have been a lack of will to carry through with the effort to re-establish the American Silhouette Association which had turned over its sanctioning body functions to the NRA. So here we sit.

Tony can provide more detail I am sure, but my understanding is that the LASC was one of, if not the first, silhouette clubs to shoot what we now call Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette. It was shot as an unsanctioned match in conjunction with their IHMSA matches simply because some people wanted to do it and it was fun. The "notorious" Gun Zorro chroniciled its emergence in the pages of the National Silhouette Report. If the sport ceases to be fun, the point of it is lost. It is a sport, however, and not a historic recreation of anything.

One might even be inclined to say, as does the Commonwealth of Virginia, Sic Semper Tyrannis.

[Innocent]

RIck,
Amen...needless to say (if you read my comments) I would not make an OBEDIENT wife, and that carries over to my objections to the "petty tyrants like Mr. Krei."
Mary

[Bob259]

RIck,
Amen...needless to say (if you read my comments) I would not make an OBEDIENT wife, and that carries over to my objections to the "petty tyrants like Mr. Krei."
Mary

But you really got that 'DIS' Obedient thing down pat and work well for ya

[ppkny]

I'm glad someone got a response from the NRA (in a couple of days) I'm still waiting for mine. In trying to be fair I sent them pictures of my setup and just plain asked yes or no. Is that to much to ask. If they won't rule on them where does that leave any of us.
ppkny

[cslcAl]

I just don get the whole equipment race excuse as it applies to fiber optic sights. It costs literaly pennies to adapt a Lyman 17A to a fiber sight. All you need to do is drill a hole in the insert and glue a piece of wire to it. I do agree with not allowing drastic mods. to the rifles, such as rebarreling. If they want to get picky they should take a close look at all the Marlins that have been sent back to the custom shop and been remanufactured into a different model or caliber. OOPS, did I let the cat out of the bag??
I have acopy of the book "Old Gunsights" by Nick Stoebel. It is a very informative book. On page 290 there are two pages copied from the Winchester catalog from 1898. There are 7 different front sight listed and 12 different rear sights listed. They run the gammet from simple to sophistaced, globe fronts with spirit levels, ladder rear sights and even a verinier peep. These were all available as options from the factory.
Today we are very limited in the choices we have for sight options as compared to 100+ years ago. I suppose if we had these choices there would be an equipment race.
I personally don't uses fiber sights as we mostly shoot at white targets and I don't have trouble with a black sight on a white background. I would though like to have the option to use them on black targets if I so chose. Al Foust

[glen ring]

A clear , standardization of the rules so everyone understands them would be very nice, but I think I've got them figured out in CLA. I like them.

We will be having NRA CLA at the Oklahoma City Gun Club in 2011. We want to do a good job and see the sport continue to grow.

We would like to know what disciplines you have seen killed and by what actions from the NRA. We certainly don't want to make those mistakes and hurt the sport.

I've been involved in shooting events and even put on a couple. I've shot in some fairly big matches and have won my fair share of trophy s and guns, but I'd bet my wife wouldn't take anything for her 1st "B" class trophy at her very first National Championship. I know that not everyone can be a champion and that's the reason for the classification systems the NRA uses. I like them.

I think I've seen more harm done to shooting events by grumpy folks at a match. We should all be an ambassador for any shooting sport .

I know that not everyone can be pleased at a shooting event. That's human nature and that's OK. I think the vast Majority likes the way the NRA runs things and the Majority likes the rules.

Everyone has an opinion and suggestions will always make the sport better. We;re planning on attending more meetings next year and join in on the discussions and suggestions.

I have had a great deal of experience dealing with folks in many competitions and there will always be a small number of folks that have a complaint.

We like the NRA and the way they run the CLA Nationals.

[jnyork]

Since the poor ol' geezers cant see the sights anymore, why dont we let everyone over 50 shoot with a scope?

( I'm 70, )

[Innocent]

jnyork...in smallbore long ago, we used to simply seperate the guns into iron and optic classes...I have no objection to going back to that.
Mary

[ppkny]

Altough there is the word optics in FIBER OPTICS there is no magnification advantage gained. So saying iron and optics doesn't seem to fit what is being discussed does it?
ppkny