new or revised hunter class

[deadeyeky]

what would people think if NRA changed the silhouette hunter class rules back to what they were 10 years ago, when the rifles had to be completely factory and no "wildcat" cartridges......... i would think if there was a new class created with those rules, or if NRA changed the rules back to what they were, more brand new silhouette shooters wouldnt be so discouraged about competing by those custom hunter guns idk maybe one like this... [img][img]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn14 ... /031-1.jpg[/img][/img],

all just to get more ppl into the sport...

[dave imas]

I think a rule change would be a VERY BAD idea. Going back makes the investment of a lot of shooters obsolete, forcing them to purchase another rifle. I don't know if Match Directors have changed their opinions but previously they mostly seemed against adding another class. Expense, effort, and complication.

There are a lot of reasons we don't have a plethora of folks playing our game and we have certainly discussed them on more than a couple of occasions over the past years. I know I've dragged quite a few folks out to a match for their first go. Some stuck some didn't but I can say, pretty confidently, those that didn't come back were far more discouraged by the difficulty of the game than the expense of the rifles. Most folks really had no idea how much the equipment was and, once they were hooked, didn't care. It has been well documented by our community in many discussions that a competent rig can be had for less than $800. Given the cost of most big boy hobbies, we are relatively cheap in comparison. If you want more folks, make the targets bigger. But even with that, you still have to make the effort to drag people to matches. If you figure it is just a numbers game then you should determine how many new shooters are introduced to silhouette shooting on a monthly basis at your match. If you want more shooters, drag more people out. Some percentage will stick, some won't... but if you aren't bringing new folks out you don't stand a chance.
Once you do get them out, nurture them through a process.
Have them shoot the pistol targets until they can hit half of them. Then graduate them to our targets. I actually started my wife shooting off the bench, then to the pistol targets, then to the regulation targets. Having never shot before she was shooting very solid A scores in 3 months. Prior to our legs being cut off, the Tacoma Sportsmens club was seeing a pretty amazing number of new shooters each month. We actually have quite a few new shooters sticking with it as well. Loaner rifles at the range, available pistol targets, clinics... much more difficult than a rule change but I'll argue, far more effective.

kinda long. sorry.

[ppkny]

Without revisiting both classes any changes would not addresses the equipment similarity between the two classes that exist today.
There are only a few differences now; trigger,weight and barrel and as more Master and AAA shooters using one gun prove, these differences don't equal higher scores. Using one gun in both classes has become very popular especially in smallbore.
A better solution would be to allow the heavy gun to advance like it was doing in the early 90's before the NRA stop all experimentation and what I think has lead to the situation we find ourselves in now.
Here's a picture of a 1992 heavy gun.
ppkny

[Bob259]

I agree with Dave and PPKNY. If you change the rules now and make the current custom rifles illegal you will do more harm to this sport then the Democrats and anti gunners ever could.

It's not the rifle, and that's been proven over and over it's the person pulling the trigger that gets the good scores. How many times have we heard things like Cathy's rifle broke, borrowed one from someone else and with different ammunition and never shooting it before, won.

If this was easy you would see a lot more shooters shooting 40's or high 30's. If this was so easy you'd see Lones Wigger, an Olympic champion, http://www.usashooting.com/alumni/LonesWigger.html
http://www.usolympichalloffame.com/?page_id=35
shooting 40's every time. He isn't shooting 40's one right after the other so then this is a difficult sport.

When the NRA changed the rules and banned chin guns we lost a lot of shooters that had invested lots of money in custom rifles that were within the rules, you do it again today and we will lose more shooters.

Bringing new shooters to your matches and encouraging them would do more for the sport then changing rules again and again to get some 'perceived' benefit and only end up loosing shooters who have invested under the existing rules.

[Kevin6q]

For any sport or activity to grow it needs to be accessible and have a certain level of exposure. A few newspaper articles can shed light onto the sport and put firearms into a positive spot. The history of silo is interesting since it moved away from bloodshed and it was a band of outlaws who made the change. PETA should love it!

The accessability means bringing people to matches and have them understand what's going on and have a certain level of success. We know this.

If the NRA is going to make a rule change about what's legal to use they should just expand the number of classes. Making a change to established classes alienates shooters. If anything open up the rules and let people experiment. My match rifle is the only gun I own and doesn't fit any category. The silo guys in NH allow me to shoot which is great for me but my scores are not official, I don't have a book and there fore not "official" for statistical reasons. Even though we shoot for ourselves it is nice to know there is a chance to win something. We all enjoy winning and expanding the available classes gives us a chance for a moment of glory.

In many events there are "local rules" which the organizers apply to keep things fun. Unless it causes a lot of headache or safety issues why not have a bench class, prone, or anything else to encourage shooters to attend. The Pemigiwassette F&G club does this with their biathlon series and has set up rules/classes to allow anyone to participate. At each event almost 50% of the participants don't fit official USBA biathlon rules but these shooters attend each monthly match.

Why wait for the NRA to take the lead? If your club wants to make up new rules or classes then do so. If the NRA misses out on the $12 for a book so what. From what I can see, in oversimplified terms, all the NRA does for silo is keep stats and give out pins. I can't believe the NRA is going to pitch a fit when a club adds local rules allowing more people to try a shooting sport or become more active shooters.

[wasa43]

As the prior poster suggested, if there are going to be any changes, it should be to add a class, rather than change an existing class.

How about an "Open" class, that would have no restrictions as regards weight, trigger pull, barrel contour, etc. This would be in addition to the current Standard and Hunter classes.

It would be very interesting to see how the scores compared. I think that the best scores would come from the best shooters, with not much impact from the gun. The new class would give the experimenters full scope for their talents.

Chris C

[dryfire]

I am pleased to see that the general sentiment is to have no change. It seems as well that people are pretty much the same when they're introduced to this challenging sport. A small number stay but many don't return after the first or second attempt.
It may be novel to have an unlimited class but we have top shooters
competing with one gun in both classes now and posting near perfect scores, so I don't think the unlimited class would do anything but allow match rifle shooters an opportunity to classify.
So many times I have heard " I can't hold my rifle like you guys do" or
" I don't want to shoot in a match cause I'm not good enough"
Just doesn't cut it. Get people out and some will stay !
To make the post a little longer : A new shooter at our club has been shooting since April. He is B soon to be A class. He won B class at our
Provincial Match in July.

[Ralph]

I run the SB rifle match at HRPC in South Florida. We are lucky to get 6 rifle shooters for a monthly match, from a local population of 5-6 million.

Of the six shooters, 2-3 have NRA scorebooks and want their scores recorded. The rest don't care. They just want to have fun and try to win. They aren't going to compete in Jax or Winns or anywhere else. They are just club shooters looking for a good time.

Trying to run separate matches for even two classes in this situation doesn't make sense. We just run the match and declare a club winner. That keeps em happy and coming back for more.

I don't see much benefit in starting a third, unlimited class.

[jneihouse]

I'm in agreement with Dave, legislating "equality" among silhouette rifles by rolling back or changing rules won't bring new shooters into the group. If you really want to grow the sport take the hard core nucleus of smallbore shooters at your local club...Everyone make their best evangelical church effort at bring someone new out to shoot each match. Keep in touch with those who come out and shoot with you....Make them feel welcome...Loan them a gun...Create an atmosphere in which they can compete and enjoy some success. Some will stick, some will not, but if you keep turning the numbers you will grow.

We run an unofficial half-scale match alongside our regular monthly matches using the hunter pistol smallbore targets. We let kids shoot off the bench and kids always shoot free. We are liberal in giving out trophies and recognition, especially to the youth. We try to be helpful, but not intrusive into their "match" experience. Much more important at this level to let them have fun safely than it is to pin down any problems they may have with form or NPA or trigger squeeze etc.... New shooters learn firearms safety and match commands and protocol.

Some talk was given at the competitors meeting at the nationals this year as to what the NRA can do to help us grow as a sport....I really don't think the NRA can do much to help us grow the sport....They could do some things that might increase attendance at the nationals, but if the sport is to grow it is up to each of us to grow it.

Kitty

[tbone49]

Well said , John.

[Ralph]

At HRPC, we started out offering every category possible, because the old time silhouette guys thought "the more the better". We were offering NRA SB rifle, pistol and IHMSA pistol categories and ended up with more categories than shooters. It was impossible to declare a winner of any match since everyone was shooting their own category.

We are trying to change this. By next year, we will hopefully only have three main categories - NRA SB standard rifle, IHMSA pistol (for the three guys who like to shoot laying on their backs) and a Fun Silhouette category.

HRPC already offers a Fun Pistol and Fun Rifle club match (paper targets, not silhouette) every month which is very popular. The winners of the matches are announced at the club meeting and in the newsletter and this leads to the members coming out and practicing for it and wanting to win it. Similarly, we will try to offer a Fun Silhouette match which will be basically 3/8 scale targets and shoot whatever SB rifle or pistol you've got, have fun, and try to win. Eventually some of them will get bored with it and hopefully move to the NRA rifle match or the IHMSA pistol match.

Once people get into it, we can talk to them about getting an NRA scorebook, what categories to shoot, etc. But I agree with Kitty and others here that to grow the sport, you have to work on it at the club level and make it interesting and appealing to club members. At the club level, adding more categories doesn't help.

[deadeyeky]

im sure everybody was just as appalled at the hunter class rule changes a few years back...... i started shooting silos in december of 2005, im not quite sure what year the rule change happened, but it was befor i entered the game. But what kept me,(and im sure my father) coming back to shoots was i wanted to keep bettering my scores, i didnt really pay attn. to other shooters scores, but i was in awe of their rifles and abilities and i wanted to b like them one day, and im gettin close (HP match winner at our match last saturday and in morro bay on sunday, and knocking on masters door in SB). my first match i brought this short little 10/22 with a 3-9 leo on it, then got a BSA, upgraded the rifle a little at a time and is now my standard rifle, here ya go...

[img][img]http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn14 ... /031-2.jpg[/img]

but before that rifle became what it is, i got a pharr stocked anschutz that u see at the top of this thread, and i realized just how much a custom rifle really changed my scores, (they didnt at first) i shot this rifle the same as i did a factory savage mk2 at first, althought the rifle has allowed me to increase my scores by just a small percentage, most of my improvement has been accomplished by my weekly practice, and attending about 4 matches a month around the state, everybody is right, its not the rifle, but the person behind it, when i started shooting i thought the exact opposite of this. during some matches i also hear "i cant hold as steady as you". practice practice practice, most of this game is mental, and i wish more people could experience this type of shooting.

i deeply appreciate everybodys thoughts on this, as i still sometimes hear how the original hunter rules should never have been changed and im just throwing an idea out there

im just trying to get more people into the sport, just this year our club has brought 2 or 3 new shooters to silhouette, and im working at getting about 5 different people to the range and i agree with kitty about having small fun matches along with the regular match, and not pressing the newest shooters with stuff like NPA and shot plans, that all comes later.

a little long, sorry

[GeoNLR]

im sure everybody was just as appalled at the hunter class rule changes a few years back......

Actually the #'s show exactly the opposite. The major change we had a few years back basically changed the rules to allow 2 stage triggers, outside of that, it was a watering down over time to get where we are at. The polls show (including this one) that MOst (read not all) folks support the rules in place and do not favor a change. As Conner said last year before the meeting...

"We currently have the highest attendance (read books sold) that we have ever had, and at the same time, we had fewer rule disputes at the large matches throught the country than ever. The rules in place seem to be working and to my knowledge are not looking at changing them with the exception of making a hunting stock fit the jig"
(in a nut shell)

Now, fast forward - That meeting took place, there have yet been another wave of 'large' matches w/o any disputes / protest over equipment...

Don't hear much talk of changing the rules, when I do it's typically in the form of whining or someone that is about the get a 'custom' rifle. Things tend to point at Pharr, People forget that 'after-market' stocks on hunting rifles have been out there of a # of years.. Brown Precision, Nesika, McMillian, HS precision, etc. I have a McMillian hp stock for my 7/08 that isn't that much different from a Pharr in the check weld or palm swell, and they don't even make it anymore.... It was shot in hunter long before Phar made his stock. Pharr took the elements that he liked from all those different designs and made it into his stock.

What does it all mean? Bringing up the subject of changing the rules might get you looked at like you were a troll (and for good reason)... LOL, Just be aware of that, but I respectfully disagree that everyone is appualed by the rules we have in place. They seem to be working fine and they put the focus where it needs to be, stand up on your own and make the shot.

Is there a movement out there attampting to change the rules? Besides Gator, I'm not sure who would be in charge of such a movement...LOL (J/K Ed)

Chicken

[Bob259]

Well said CG...

Now don't go picking on Gator and getting him all fired up either

[deadeyeky]

What does it all mean? Bringing up the subject of changing the rules might get you looked at like you were a troll (and for good reason)... LOL, Just be aware of that, but I respectfully disagree that everyone is appualed by the rules we have in place. They seem to be working fine and they put the focus where it needs to be, stand up on your own and make the shot.

the idea just popped up in my head and i decided to throw it to the sharks to see if you guys would tear it up or just swim by..... at we as silhouette shooters all have the same general idea as in which way the sport should point its headlights