Target Grouping

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:26 pm

I should know the answer to this, but...

When practicing off hand on paper targets the majority of my hits are left and low. Shifting NPA doesn't matter, so it's something wrong during trigger pull. Kitty'll rap my knuckles and scream "More dry fire drills for you! Back of the Man Cave!", so I'd like to solve this before he returns from Nationals...

I have some suspicions, but want to hear y'alls thoughts first.

Kevin6q · Post by **Kevin6q** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:19 pm

Knowing if you shoot LH or RH will help us.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:32 pm

Kevin6q wrote:Knowing if you shoot LH or RH will help us.

Right Handed.

psteiger · Post by **psteiger** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:53 pm

it's cuz you lean so far left.............

Kitty made me say it!

pistolero45 · Post by **pistolero45** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:07 pm

I would evaluate your technique for the following potential symptoms: tightening fingers, jerking trigger, pushing forward, or dropping head. Try some dry firing and see what happens.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:46 pm

psteiger wrote:it's cuz you lean so far left.............

Kitty made me say it!

Hmmm... Hadn't thought of that...

pistolero45 wrote:I would evaluate your technique for the following potential symptoms: tightening fingers, jerking trigger, pushing forward, or dropping head. Try some dry firing and see what happens.

Jerking the trigger I understand, but could you explain the others? Dry firing does show problems with the trigger pull I'm trying to iron out, but those would just throw the shot low, not left (be quiet Kitty...)

deadeyeky · Post by **deadeyeky** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:53 pm

well uhhhhh. your poi could be different from the bench to an offhand position,

i kno mine is, if i place the end of the forend in my front rest and zero my scope there, and then go to a standing position, my shots seem to go low

but if i place the front rest under the action and zero my scope with it there, it seems to take care of this problem,

now being lefthanded, when i have problems with my trigger i either pull the shot towards the left of the animal, and every once in a while ill go either under or over, if i shoot my highpower rifle befor my SB i find myself pushing shots low with my SB, no excuse for the ones that go high though,

so yup, try the different rest position, and losts of dry fire practice also

may i ask if its a SB rifle or HP......?
if HP the cullprit will most likely be either jerking the trigger or some slight flinching for a righty to pull a shot left

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:54 pm

would evaluate your technique for the following potential symptoms: tightening fingers, jerking trigger, pushing forward, or dropping head. Try some dry firing and see what happens

These are all good suggestions as to what to look for, also consider too much trigger finger, i.e. pulling with the trigger finger at the first joint, anticipation or pushing the shot, poor follow through are things to consider.

Missed you at the SB Nationals, just got home this evening.

Mary

dave imas · Post by **dave imas** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:21 pm

is your left arm supporting your rifle with muscle or bone? if muscle, are you relaxing your left arm just as you break your shot? if you are supporting with bone are you completely relaxing your left arm prior to your shot? if not, are you relaxing your left arm as you break your shot?

are you tensioning your right hand/arm when you prepare to break your shot? if so, are you relaxing your right hand just as you break your shot?

both of those relaxations will cause low shots. depending upon whether you are shooting with an open or closed stance, right handed shooters will commonly fall just a tad left when they relax at the wrong tme.

not watching you makes it difficult but these errors are very common in folks i've worked with.

good luck.

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:41 pm

not watching you makes it difficult

Dave, I agree with this statement 100%. A fellow shooter was shooting air rifle at the Southern Nationals and Kitty did a series of three photos of him with the same rifle. The shooter is a AAA in smallbore and hunter but only AA as the best of the air rifles. But in looking at the series of photos I can see why, as the supporting hand is in a very different position each time a photo was taken, this is an obvious case of the shooter not getting the rifle to the same position each time and apparently not aware of the problem.
As a side note even the Master/AAA class shooters can use the helpful eye of a coach, to look for bad habits picked up along the way.

Mary

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:44 pm

I notice something similar when I dryfire, but I'm unsure of how I might correct the symptom, since I'm not entirely sure what's causing it. When I dryfire I see my sight picture dips down, and ever so slightly to the left. But more down than anything.

edit - Actually, now that I think about it I'm not sure of the direction of the windage shift, but it's so slight that I don't think it matters much at this point. The dip downward is definitely more of a concern.

Kevin6q · Post by **Kevin6q** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:47 am

I was thinking along the same line as Dave. You are anticipating the break and relaxing or flinching. Try using a different rifle with an unfamiliar trigger and see what your reaction is when you think the shot is going to break. My guess is you move in anticipation. You might also be exhaling just as you anticipate the break and this can cause low shots especially if you are not completely bone/bone between your support elbow and your hip. If the support arm is pinned into the rib cage the exhale will drop the shot for sure.

The lateral displacement might be overgripping the stock and pulling with your entire finger. Take a look at your hand without the rifle and grab the "air stock" really tight and pull the "trigger" and watch what happens. My guess is your hand rolls left. Now relax the grip and pull the trigger. The hand most likely remains still. Too tight a grip will also impart a leftward trend or curl as you move your trigger finger. You might also be stabbing at the trigger shoe when you see a good picture and the lateral movement will push things away from the trigger hand.

Next time you shoot or dry fire, take your trigger hand off the stock and lightly place it back before going through your normal routine. After the hand is back, think about how it feels different from a few seconds ago.

dave imas · Post by **dave imas** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:41 am

everyone is going to drop their rifle. it is just a matter of dropping it before your shot or during your shot. dropping it during your shot won't work. just means a lot of low misses.

by "dropping before your shot" i mean relaxing your left arm until it hits bone and can't "drop" any more. not so easy to get it there and then we have to keep it relaxed once we begin executing our shot. we often, unconsciously, begin to tense our left are while we are aqcuiring our sight picture and begin to lift our elbow off bone just so we can drop it again as we are breaking the shot. we have to get it relaxed and on to bone then keep it relaxed.

this means building a position that allows that to happen. not always easy for all of us. depending on our body style, some of us are better able to do this than others. for those of us with bad backs, big bellies, long waists, etc, we sometimes have to make adjustments or compromises with our positions that don't allow the ideal. that is life... we don't do this for a living. we just make do with what we have to work with.

Mary... i'm with you. I'd go a long way to work with a good coach.

nomad · Post by **nomad** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:04 pm

David,

I can come up and give you some advice.
The nice part is that it won't cost you a cent.
(SEVERAL people who shoot with you regularly have told me that, if I can get you to shoot just like I do, they'll pay me handsomely!)

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:49 pm

dave imas wrote:Mary... i'm with you. I'd go a long way to work with a good coach.

Amen, though there's this rumor going around that I'm kind of stubborn and difficult to coach.

Shooting airgun forced me to improve target hold and think more about getting the stock on bone, specifically flat across the left palm. In smallbore I use a split finger hold with back ward pressure through the thumb and into the trigger guard. Sight picture climbs up and right when the rifle is fired - probably a release of tension from pulling and pushing the rifle into my shoulder.

Hmmm... Time to dry fire while concentrating on aligning the axis of pressures on the rifle with the axis of the rifle and the target... A component of NPA? If all the axes are aligned, then any muzzle climb should be straight up and down...