7-08 reloading mystery Help!

[wasa43]

OK, here's the deal.

This morning I had 70 cases prepped, decided to make my Turkey and Ram load, 36.5 grains of Reloder 15 under a 168 gr SMK. I checked the powder measure on the Dillon, the first couple of cases are off a bit as usual, then it settled down to 36.5, and I ran though the 70 cases.

I spent a couple of hours prepping more cases, and went to run off another 150 rounds. I checked the powder measure, its throwing a steady 36 grains. Tried it half a dozen times, yep 36 grains even, what happened to my extra half a grain?

Now I am worried, I want to check those 70 rounds I made this am. About 20 whacks with the kinetic bullet puller finally got one bullet loose. Charge was 33.7 gr!!!!

So, I decide to sacrifice a few bullets, and use vise grips in the reloading press to pull the bullet. Charge, 33.7 gr. Crap!!

I double check the scale (Dillon digital one), rezero everything, pull another bullet, charge is 33.5 gr.

One more, and voila, the charge is 36.7 gr, right on the money.

So I have 70 carefully prepared junk rounds. The difference in weight between empty primed cases rules out weighing them to tell good from bad. Crap again.
I pour the powder out of the measure into a bowl, no foreign matter at all. I had a similar problem once with pistol rounds, and it turned out that a piece of Styrofoam from the seal around the cap of the powder can had migrated down to the bottom of the powder measure, but that's not what happened here.

I reassemble the powder measure, and carefully pour the powder back in, again no foreign matter. I tried a few charges, and it's still throwing 36 grains.

Suddenly it starts throwing 36 1/2 again. So I charged 18 cases one after another and put the cases in a loading block, so the rhythm is just like actual reloading. Here are the charge weights 36.6, 36.3, 36.5, 36.2, 36.6, 36.5, 36.8, 36.6, 36.7, 36.5, 36.8, 36.9, 36.7, 36.8, 36.5, 36.7, 36.7, 36.5.

This is the familiar pattern that I have seen with these Dillon power measures, that if you load to a constant rhythm after the first few cases they get very consistent.

So, two questions

Number one. What happened and how can I prevent it from happening again?

Number two does anybody have any way to salvage the 70 rounds I have sitting in a plastic bag?

[Jerry G]

My Dillon measure has been acting up this summer too. I set it for light charges and trickle to the right weight. It is a little slower but I am getting consistent loads now. I guess I need to contact Dillon and find out what the cure is.

If you take 40 whacks to pull bullets, you have too much neck tension. You better start checking neck thickness and buy a neck turner.

[Jason]

Got tired of dealing with the same problem with two different powder scales, which led me to the same procedure as Jerry to make sure I got consistent charges. Then I saw the RCBS Chargemaster powder dispenser/scale combo at Gary Malmberg's house. An unused shotgun went away and a Chargemaster came to stay. Absolutely love it. I can't imagine trying to load for a high volume match like the WA high power state match (240 shots for score, I think) without it.

[lone ringer]

I too use a Dillon 550 progressive loader for all my reloading but for a long time I have been using an adapter for a Redding BR30 powder measure that is way more reliable than the Dillon. I record my numbers for the different powder charges and use them time after time with no variations. Yes I know is a little bit slower but its worth the time and effort.

[boats]

One of the most common loading problems is inconsistent measuring. Try this, rather than dribble up to charge set the measure to throw the exact charge desired into the scales pan. Check weigh then dump charges that weigh properly into the case. Off weight dump the charge and try again. This gives you instant feed back on short stroking or moving the lever too fast. And lets you know if one was wrong right after it was wrong which works wonders for prefecting your stroking.

Doing this for a while I have settled on several different measures for specific powders, and some combinaitons never throw consistent charges.

Boats

[Jerry G]

Boats, If your powder dispenser isn't part of the progressive system, what you suggest would work just fine. I can throw consistant charges with my old Redding dispenser but then I have to leave the normal powder charging station open on my Dillion 550B and charge the cases there with a funnel. Any way you look at it, if you arn't using the Dillon progressive powder dispenser, you are slowing the system way down.

I don't find wasa43's 0.7 gr varation to be acceptable. I am a little curious as to what powder variation is acceptable to you reloaders. When I weigh charges and trickle, I am happy 0.2 gr variation. That would be plus or minus 0.1 gr. Am I being too picky?

[RBriscoe]

"And now for something completely different...."

I don't know that this is your problem, especially because of the large variation you got, but powder is both temperature and humidity sensitive. They affect the charge weight by volume because the powder itself changes volume and the moisture changes its weight, though supposedly only a small percentage.

You may have been experiencing any of several things, including so-called bridging, even though Rel15 is a comparatively small granule powder. One thing that is rather surprising is the way static electricity can affect powder measures. Some of the manufacturers of premium benchrest powder measures recommend rubbing things down (on outside surfaces) with a fabric softener tissue (that's right, the laundry stuff) which tends to reduce the problems with static electricity.

In general, powder measures take a bit for the powder column to settle down and using a consistent technique, whether with a progressive loader or a stand alone powder measure. The Charge Master electronic dispenser is rather nice and several people I know who use it like it very much.

On the other hand, congratulations on your excellent reloading practices to have discovered the problem before you were shooting a match and could not figure out why things were so screwy.

Cheers

P.S. I do not recall if the Dillon powder measure has a baffle in it like the Redding and other powder measures, but they can make a difference by providing a more stable powder column over the metering chamber.

[Bob259]

I use the RCBS Chargemaster and what I like is every drop is the same. However, the more folks I talk to are using their Dillon's for reloading and it sure would speed up the process, as every pull is a loaded round. I have a spare Dillon 550 (converted 450) I bought from a friend that was getting out of shooting so I'm thinking on trying it. I bought the adapter that Lone Ringer mentions from Dillon and may use a Redding thrower instead of Dillon's.

[wasa43]

Jerry G, Jason, Lone Ringer, Boats, Rbriscoe, and Bob259, thanks for your thoughtful and helpfull replies!

What makes this maddening is that I have loaded thousands of rounds with this equipment, with no problems. I don't want to add any new gear right now, so for the future I am going to put loaded rounds in a loading block, in order, and check powder weight every 10th round, which should alert me to the problem if it happens again.

BTW, my prediction is that it will never happen again, and that the cause will remain a mystery, sigh.

Thanks for all of your help, guys.

[lone ringer]

Number two does anybody have any way to salvage the 70 rounds I have sitting in a plastic bag?

Instead of using vise grips use side cuter pliers that will only put a couple of marks on the bullets and you can reuse them or invest on a RCBS bullet puller die. I have done it both ways

[lone ringer]

Boats, If your powder dispenser isn't part of the progressive system, what you suggest would work just fine. I can throw consistent charges with my old Redding dispenser but then I have to leave the normal powder charging station open on my Dillion 550B and charge the cases there with a funnel. Any way you look at it, if you aren't using the Dillon progressive powder dispenser, you are slowing the system way down.

Jerry they make a very inexpensive adapter that lets you mount your Redding onto the same powder charging station on your Dillon 550B the only difference is that you manually drop the powder which for me is not a big deal taking into consideration how much more reliable my Redding powder measure is versus the Dillon.

Just to be fair I have to say that when I was having trouble I never called Dillon to see if they had heard of problems with their powder measure and if they had a way to fix the problem. I know that some times manufactures have problems with something and end up changing something to improve the situation.
I was having problems with the small primer feeding consistently to the point that I was placing them by hand one at a time. I called Dillon and besides sending me a bunch of parts free of charge told me what to do to fix the problem. The fix was so simple I was surprised because I never thought cleaning the inside of the feeding tube would solve the primer feeding problems.

[RBriscoe]

This is slightly off topic, but Dillon's "no BS warranty" policy has an interesting story behind it. Several years ago, a gunsmith and his assistant in the area wound up in a gun fight in his shop with some bangers who came in to "do him", apparently as a part of either an initiation or to get back into the gang. In any event, a Dillon press took a direct hit from a shotgun. After all was said and done, the 'smith called Dillon to order some replacement parts. Dillon told him "if it breaks, we fix it" and published the story in the Blue Press.

If you have a problem with one of their products, give them a call. They may or may not have quite the solution desired, but they will try which is more than can be said about a lot of things these days.

That said, Tony's solution works, and well.

[Jerry G]

Tony, I did a search on adaptors and realy didn't come up with anything. Where did you get yours? My old Redding measure works as well now as when I bought it back in the 60s.

[Bob259]

Tony, I did a search on adaptors and realy didn't come up with anything. Where did you get yours? My old Redding measure works as well now as when I bought it back in the 60s.

Gerry, Right from Dillon. http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/conten ... Powder_Die

[lone ringer]

Tony, I did a search on adaptors and realy didn't come up with anything. Where did you get yours? My old Redding measure works as well now as when I bought it back in the 60s.

Gerry, Right from Dillon. http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/conten ... Powder_Die

That's the one I have Jerry.
Thank you Bob