Does silhouette need an overhaul?

[dustinflint]

Our club championship is a for-fun tournament that is conducted over the course of the entire year at club matches. It is not a national championship. It is not a regional championship. It's nothing but a club championship. We handicap it so that all the shooters can participate.

I do not advocate handicaps at big matches and if this thread is going to be an attack on anyone who has a new idea, it's not worth the time to respond to it.

Dustin

[duckgumbo]

Dustin,

I am not attacking ANY one or idea and if you are taking it personal, I am sorry. I just am glad that you clarified the handicap championship at your club. If you choose not to respond, no problem.

The handicap system for the fun matches was invented by the late Chuck Deason and Dennis Glasscock. Winnsboro Gun Club did not invent ANY of the stuff that we did to be successful. We stole every good idea from some other match or venue. The Team Shoot was stolen from Florida, the printed program with ads from Houston, the handicap system from Florida and the meals from Florida. We just decided to have Budweiser as a sponsor and that is the only thing that Jerry and I came up with and target setters every day and adding the tip to the fee. We did use the system for awards based on classes after golf tournaments with different flights.

We may not have been smart enough to invent what we did, but we were not smart enough to not work hard and try to improve each year by stealing ideas. The back stops were originally done in Texas at Waco and I think they borrowed them from Fort Worth.

Just realize that you cannot get pissed off at what other people tell you even though you may think it wrong. We listened to everyone and obviously it was the correct thing to do. Personally Jerry and I are done with any type of activity in the Sport and if anyone wants my advice, then call me as anyone that I care to hear from has my number.

[dustinflint]

David,

The only reason that I am taking anything personally is because you quoted me then called my comments "total bullshit" then went on to make a point that had nothing to do with my comment. I certainly don't mind if anyone disagrees with me but to say something is "total bullshit" is a little past disagreeing.

Also, I am having a hard time understanding how your experience running the Southern Nationals has anything to do with what this thread is all about, which is improving the participation and promotion of the game across the country.

One of my suggestions to improve interest is to play games and tournaments and leagues on the club level to help keep people interested and increase participation. At our club matches we use a handicapping system to play a tournament-type game we call the "club championship." No one gets bent out of shape if a AA shooter beats a master shooter at a handicapped game. I have clarified and explained this over and over on this thread.

I started this thread to try to get some ideas about how to better promote the game and get more participation. I've made some suggestions and shared my thoughts; you called my thoughts "total bullshit." You've made it clear on numerous occasions on this website that you are out of the game, have no interest promoting the game, have no interest shooting the game, and have no interest in running matches - yet you call a simple opinion "total bullshit" and go on and on about running a match - I can draw some similarities between promoting the match and promoting the game on a national level but outside of that I don't see where running a big match has anything to do with what we're talking about. I may just be missing something .

I really don't want to argue with you but I am having a hard time understanding whether you are attacking me or trying to offer an idea/solution, or both, or neither.

Dustin

[duckgumbo]

How about neither and leave it at that. I am done if you think I attacked your thread as anyone that knows me realizes I was just saying how to have a successful event and maybe better the sport and participation. By the way, Jerry read my posts before I posted them. Not sure whom I attacked but this is my last post on Steelchickens since as you say I am out of the sport. Good luck to all. I will respond to private emails and calls but have Caller ID.

[dustinflint]

David,

I don't think there is any need for either of us to get angry. I think this is just lack of good communication based on the fact that we are typing this and not talking about it. I've told you a hundred times that I want you to shoot and don't want you to be out of the sport and I value your thoughts on this website. How about we just agree that neither of us meant anything offensive by what we said?

Dustin

[Jim T.]

And everyone lived happily ever after, in a handicapped sort of way, I think?!

The End!

[chuckjordan2]

And back on topic, there is one area that has become apparent to me as the decline in some aspects of Silhouette: Price of Quality Equipment (ie Rifles) and lack of it on Secondary Market, specifically for the CLA-focused shooter.

Let me clarify: I currently shoot SB-CLA and SB-Hunter and have been in this sport for 2 - 2.5 years. So my perspective is from a fairly new person trying to break into this sport. In SB-Hunter I have a CZ-452 which is fairly easy to find, priced well, and competitive. Annies (ie 1712) are also competitive and available. In SB-CLA I have a Marlin 39A (one Remlin and one from 1960). Both capable of their needed job, however, it took 2 years to find my later 39A at a decent price.

And now that I'm hooked, I have been searching for a PC-CLA. And searching, and searching.

I'm still searching for a decent PC-CLA as prices for some rifles (ie Marlin 1894 24-inch bbl .357) are insane in prices. Same with a Browning 53, etc, etc. Even Marlin 39A prices are way high. Many interested in this sport may be looking at these prices and secondary market availability.

Here's my main point; The primary (new stock) doesn't really a PC-CLA rifle model to be competitive in this sport. Work with me on my PC-CLA quest for a rifle; would any of you shoot a Henry 16" bbl 357? That's one model available new. Nothing against Henry's, but, they don't have the needed sight radius and muzzle heaviness needed. The only company having a minimum 22"-24" barrel is the Rossi M92, everything else is secondary. Are any Marlin 1894 model being produced? How about a Browning 53?

Can anyone name a current, available new new stock, PC-CLA rifle that you would own to shoot? The key is one YOU would shoot?

I think the focus should be on the manufacturers and ask them to offer models that can be used in our sport. And the lack of availability on these competitive PC-CLA rifles are one part of this sport declining. Think about it, someone new to be competitive must go into the secondary market and pay $$$.

In contrary to my above statement, I'll admit that HP Silhouette and SB Hunter can offer excellent prices (for example: Savage Axis, 16 models, etc, CZ line) and availability. But I think the Lever-action rifles are the bread-n-butter of this sport.

Here's an relevant phrase " If you build it, they will come....."

Your thoughts?

[Grizz61]

For CLA - All, I shoot Marlins, and most of mine are over 100 years old. If you want a good shooting gun, they are going to cost $$$. Marlin I believe are the cream of the crop, but I have had and use some of the Uberti and other Italian guns with some success, so have others I have known. I have been shooting the CLA stuff for about 15 to 20 years now.

The Rossi 92s appear to be fine guns, one close friend, and team member is now starting to work on one in 357 that he got for less then $600.00.

The Henry's shoot and function fine, but they are very hard to get a good cheek weld on, because of the way they are stocked.

Basically fine one you can afford and fits you, then shoot the tar out of it. If you work hard enough they can all shoot good enough. Few years back I shoot with a AAA Class shooter that shot a Ithaca Model 47 (single shot lever action), with a aluminum receiver. He taught himself how to shoot it, and shot it well.


Grizz

[Hattrix]

I shoot Marlins in CLA Rifle and CLA Smallbore, but I shoot a Cimarron (Uberti) '73 for a PC gun and wouldn't change a thing. They are little $$ but the quality is top notch. They are available in 20" and 24" barrels and with a little love on the trigger from a good gunsmith (HCP Gunsmithing!!) they shoot as well as anything on the market. Currently available in a variety of calibers and configurations, pretty hard to beat IMHO!

[PhxShooter]

SBCLA I shoot a Marlin 39A. Bought 2 of them new. One in '08 and one in '09. Great guns but had to change the extractors from the "new" paperclip style to the old style and they've been perfect since then. If you can find anything pre-Remlin it doesn't have to OLD to be good. Actually I've heard that Remlin is producing some pretty decent rifles after their hiatus. A friend bought a .308 Marlin Express and was impressed with the fit/finish and the general quality. I'm not sure if they've started manufacturing the 39A yet.

PCCLA I shoot a Marlin 1894 .44 Mag, Cowboy limited 24" Octagon. They're still available if you're willing to wait and spend a lot of time looking. I just watched one NIB go for about $1,375 on GunBroker. I had been bidding on it but gave up. Less than 2 weeks later I bought another unfired 1894 .44Mag, CB 24" Octagon for less than $850. It just didn't have the box. Now with the .44 mag you MUST download significantly or they'll damage the target. Don't know if they'll ever produce the 24" CB again.

I don't know what model it is but a friend shoots a Rossi in .45 Long Colt for PCCLA and it's a good shooter. The problem with them, or at least the one he has, is that the front sight is part of the barrel band. Makes modifying the sight a real challenge. Same problem with some of the Henrys

CLA it's the 336CB 24" Octagon 30-30. I've seen 2 recently on Gunbroker. One NIB and one used. They both went for less than I thought they would.

Overall cost. If I put together the price of 3 Lever Guns (one each for SBCLA, PCCLA and CLA) they're less than my Beretta over/under for sporting clays and I shoot a cheap shotgun compared to most in that game. Sporting Clays is constantly growing. There is a new record high in attendance for the National Championship this year. Well over 1,900 shooters. Of course they're also giving away over $300,000.00 in guns to the shooters at the championship. Think that might have something to do with it?

Our stagnant/declining shooter base can't be just cost.

[chuckjordan2]

"Our stagnant/declining shooter base can't be just cost." Really? What is the age demographics at your club? I would bet that the average age is over 50, I know it's that at my club. Those people are in their prime earning years.

I guess this topic never defined what age group is declining? Is it the over 50 group? Or the college-age, 20-somethings? How many of those are at your silhouette club/matches? We have one young girl (high school) whose grandfather has been in this sport for a long time. She shoots her grandfather's rifles and ammunition very good. The point that may be missed in my prior sentence is that there is no cost for her (remember, it's granddad's rifle and ammo).

I'd like to know which club(s) have young shooters whose parents have NOT been in this sport 10+ years. That may provide more information as to whether cost is a factor.

[PhxShooter]

You misread my post. I said it can't be JUST cost. Sure cost is one factor in the majority of decisions we make but it's not the only factor affecting our sport. It can't be the only factor or other shooting sports like USPSA, IDPA, 3-Gun, SASS and Sporting Clays wouldn't be growing and flourishing. None of those endeavors are inexpensive.

[Jerry G]

When I was running matches in Idaho Falls, the guys that bitched the most about cost 'snow checked' a new snow machine every year. Every time out the machine took 10 gal of premium fule and a quart of oil not to mention the fuel burned going to and from the trail heads with their pickups. We all choose how to spend our money. Once you have purchased the rifle and scope, all you are out is ammo and gas going to the range. Rifle silhouette is a very reasonably priced sport for the guys that never venture over 100 miles from home.

[RBriscoe]

Dustin,

It is interesting to see this subject coming up again. It pops up every few years.

To put it bluntly, the NRA considers the shooting sports to be a nuisance and they'd just as soon not be involved with them. Nothing has changed in this regard.

"In the beginning", there was the American Silhouette Association which turned responsibility as the sanctioning body over to the NRA. Ever since, when the question pops up, there simply is not a sufficient commitment by the number of clubs and competitors to step in and create a new organization. People are simply tired of the entire mess. The best we should expect from the NRA is occasional benign neglect. That's it.

With rare exception, the shooting sports are in decline. There is little on the horizon which suggests this situation is likely to reverse itself. Ranges are fewer and further away from where people live necessitating longer drives and greater commitment of time to participate.

My suggestion is quite simple. Do whatever you want to do at the club level or whatever and don't concern yourself with the NRA. Want to try a different course of fire or scoring system? Just do it. If the NRA insists on holding Nationals at, for example, Raton only, there are a lot of people in the Pa. area who don't ordinarily travel to Raton. Why not just hold a "Not the NRA Nationals" at the same time? Just do whatever the people want and don't be concerned about the NRA. Is it that important to have a trophy that says NRA something or other on it?

Cheers,

Rick

[High Speed]

To put it bluntly, the NRA considers the shooting sports to be a nuisance and they'd just as soon not be involved with them. Nothing has changed in this regard.
Amen!
They have a case of government-itus.
Stay Safe,
Mark