Does silhouette need an overhaul?

[dustinflint]

I don't understand the need for a handicap system when we have a classification system. If silhouette shooting is a "game" of precision shooting requiring discipline, practice and dedication then we need to follow the path of the other precision shooting sports and provide the incentives for shooters to strive to improve not "dumb down" the game so an A shooter wins an overall match.

The classification system is another form of handicapping. It is fine at big championship matches but it sucks at smaller local and club matches. How often is there enough competitors in A class at a club match to make for any type of competition? The handicapping system allows folks to compete against much better shooters. It's more fun for those shooters who aren't as serious as the Master class shooters.

Go tell some kids or busy young adult new shooters that you can be good enough to win a club match in a couple of years with enough "discipline, practice and dedication" and you'll never see them again. Have them win the match their third time out and things get interesting and fun. My nephew is 11 years old and he is THRILLED when we shoot with handicaps and he "beats" me. Discipline, practice and dedication is necessary to be good enough to win a championship match, but club matches are strictly for fun; and shooters think winning is fun.

Plus, just showing up every week or month to get a score gets old after a while for everyone but those who are at the top of the game or those who LOVE shooting. Showing up every week or month to compete in a league or series that you have a chance of winning is worth the trip to all the club matches.

It seems to me there are a lot of interim steps that should be explored before we go all in with a restructuring of the silhouette shooting sport. For instance has anyone had a face to face meeting with Greg Connor's boss about what that person is willing to do to strengthen the sport in partnership with the NRA. Keep in mind Connor might not want to upset the status quo since he might not want to work that hard?

I have - on several occasions. Dennis Willing is a great guy and is very helpful, but Greg is not going anywhere and the NRA has not made it his job to promote the game. Believe it or not, Greg actually adequately does the job that the NRA has given him. The NRA is not interested in competitive shooting and the NRA is never going to care about the strength of silhouette.

I think a media and information rich website would go a long way to enlightening the general public about our sport.

I agree.

That is, a magazine article or TV segment here or there is not going to do the trick.

I disagree. A magazine article or TV segment here or there is EXACTLY what we need. Silhouette is fun, but people don't know it exists. A magazine article or TV segment here or there would let people know about the game and reach a LOT of people.

Looking at The Outdoor Channel lineup for tonight: "Shooting USA" is doing an hour show on F-class Rifle, then "American Rifleman Television" is doing 30 minutes on Bianchi Cup, Then "NRA All Access" is doing a 30 minute show on history of pneumatic guns, Then "Shooting USA's Impossible Shots" is doing a 30 minute show on longbow shooting, then "Midway USA's Gun Stories is doing a 30 minute show on the Mauser C96 pistol, etc... Once they record these shows, they air them over and over. An AMAZING number of firearm enthusiasts watch these shows. Why are these sports featured? Because someone promoting those games ASKED them to! Why cant one or two be made featuring silhouette shooting?

From my perspective, I think it would be a lot more productive to study individual success stories concerning effective shooter recruitment (an retaining) of new shooters at the local level before heretofore untested or proven ineffective methods are deployed. For instance, Dave Bonner has done an amazing job of attracting shooters here in Colorado and his methods might work for other venues.

I agree that we need a grassroots effort from clubs, that needs to happen and needs to continue, but a more widespread effort has to be made if silhouette is going to return to a front-line shooting sport. Grassroots will keep some shooters around to make a hobby game; big numbers will make for a big sport with big matches and big corporate support.

Dustin

[OldRanger]

Dustin, I disagree with you when you say Greg is doing an adequate job for what the NRA asks of him. Just the fact that I have a little book tells me he is a failure. The fact that we have to mail in forms to report on matches tell me he has failed. The way the nationals are run (at 2 clubs). Fail. The vetting of awards. Fail. Fail. Fail.

The only thing I agree with is he is doing nothing to promote the sport. And HE doesn't see it as his job. Maybe a person that cared about our sport, and had the get up and go to get something done would see that as part of their job. We need someone younger, someone flexible, and someone with even a little 'vision'. Someone willing to listen to US and not try to tell us how it is. Basically I just nominated you for Gregs job. Or the equivalent job at a non NRA organization that should be running Silhouette if the NRA won't ditch Greg.

I had to stop a second when I was reading your last post. You say club matches are for fun. I agree they are for fun, but also they are played by the NRA rules. You seem to see the two as mutually exclusive. Like playing by the NRA ruleset is work. Or too hard. Or something. I'm not sure what I think about that yet, but it made me stop and think.

[dustinflint]

Dustin, I disagree with you when you say Greg is doing an adequate job for what the NRA asks of him. Just the fact that I have a little book tells me he is a failure. The fact that we have to mail in forms to report on matches tell me he has failed. The way the nationals are run (at 2 clubs). Fail. The vetting of awards. Fail. Fail. Fail.

The only thing I agree with is he is doing nothing to promote the sport. And HE doesn't see it as his job. Maybe a person that cared about our sport, and had the get up and go to get something done would see that as part of their job. We need someone younger, someone flexible, and someone with even a little 'vision'. Someone willing to listen to US and not try to tell us how it is. Basically I just nominated you for Gregs job. Or the equivalent job at a non NRA organization that should be running Silhouette if the NRA won't ditch Greg.

This is what I mean when I say that: as many shooters know, 2 years ago I went to WAR with Greg in order to have an air rifle silhouette national championship. He did not want it to happen, did everything in his power to keep it from happening, and despite the great success of the match, continues to be against the match. I am no fan of Greg Connor.

After the first Air Rifle nationals I PLEADED with Dennis Willing to get rid of Greg - I told Dennis that it was not fair for us to have to count on a guy who cant even send an email to promote our sport. Since that time, in my many discussions with Dennis, Greg and members of the Silhouette Committee, I have come to understand that neither the NRA, nor the Silhouette Committee, nor Greg himself sees PROMOTION and GROWING the game as part of the job description. As far as the NRA and the Silhouette Committee and Greg is concerned, Greg is there to (1) keep records, (2) coordinate approved and registered matches, and (3) put on national championship matches. I think Greg does an ADEQUATE job of those three things (not a GOOD job, only adequate, just enough to get by) -- Because he is doing enough to get by, and because the NRA doesn't really care anyway, Greg is not going to be fired or replaced - It's just not going to happen.

If it were to happen, and if we were fortunate enough for Greg to be replaced by someone with energy and vision and ideas and who participates in and cares about the game and the competitors and wants to GROW the game, we would be in good shape and it would be wonderful and silhouette would BOOM --- but I'm telling you that it's not going to happen. The NRA is a political organization - it cares about fundraising; it does not care about competitive shooting.

So, that leads us to the big question of whether we should break away from the NRA and I don't think we should. The reason that I don't think we should is because the NRA provides three services for us that are basically free to us: (1) it puts on national championship matches; (2) it keeps national records, and (3) it makes rules. I see no reason to throw away those free services when it is entirely within our power to take out of the NRA's hands anything that we don't think it is doing, like PROMOTING the game, like ONLINE match reporting, like HANDICAPPING, or whatever else we come up with.

It is simple enough to take away one of the NRA's jobs - lets say that we don't like the fact that we have to send the NRA $6.50/shooter for a regional match when the NRA provides no service whatsoever to earn that money. The reason that we have to pay that money is because if you don't pay the money and someone sets a national record, it is not entered into the national records. But, the national records are just a simple list that is buried on the NRA's website, we could keep our own national records on any website we choose. We could keep them here on steelchickens and I wouldn't have to send $600+ to the NRA for nothing after the Winnsboro match every year (our national records on the NRA's website, if you can find them, are not even accurate right now - the target air rifle 120-shot individual record is held by a 3-person team according to those records)! We could keep up with grand slams too; we could keep scoring and classifications online and not buy scorebooks from the NRA; we can do whatever we want without giving up the few free services that the NRA provides.

Everyone is sitting around complaining about Greg and thinking that we're screwed unless and until the NRA replaces him but the NRA does not own this game; the shooters do. There is nothing magical about what the NRA does. A national record posted on Steelchickens is no less legitimate than a national record posted on the NRA's website. The NRA only has the power that we give it. We can give it as much as we want and we can take away any we want.

I had to stop a second when I was reading your last post. You say club matches are for fun. I agree they are for fun, but also they are played by the NRA rules. You seem to see the two as mutually exclusive. Like playing by the NRA ruleset is work. Or too hard. Or something. I'm not sure what I think about that yet, but it made me stop and think.

I don't think that following the rules at club matches is too hard or too much work. We follow the rules at our club matches. However, club matches are not championship matches. There is nothing wrong with coming up with new games at club matches that are not in the rulebook. There is nothing wrong with starting a handicapped league or letting kids shoot off benches or letting beginners shoot at larger targets. It's about getting the casual shooter in and interested. Those of us that love the game the way it is and those of us that work at it and are in the hunt for championships - we are going to show up to club and championship matches. But if we want to get new shooters in and coming back, it has to be fun. A beginner shooting against me with a handicap knows he's not beating me straight-up, but if we make a big deal about him "winning" the match (albeit with a handicap) he is probably going to come back; and if he gets into it he might be the next shooter that wins a championship or becomes a match director at a new club or helps run a big match. I'd much rather have tens of thousands of folks shooting club matches across the country every week and not quite abiding by the rules than having 4 old guys show up to a match that is run by the book.

Dustin

[OldRanger]

So, that leads us to the big question of whether we should break away from the NRA and I don't think we should. The reason that I don't think we should is because the NRA provides three services for us that are basically free to us: (1) it puts on national championship matches; (2) it keeps national records, and (3) it makes rules. I see no reason to throw away those free services when it is entirely within our power to take out of the NRA's hands anything that we don't think it is doing, like PROMOTING the game, like ONLINE match reporting, like HANDICAPPING, or whatever else we come up with.

It is anything but free. Lets look at our tiny little silhouette population here in missoula. We usually get about 20 folks out here every month. We also hold 2 bigger events that get 80 and 60 folks respectively. So our 20 members each pay $35 a year for NRA dues. Then $13 each for a book. Thats $960 dollars, just to compete. We pay a couple bucks each per gun per month (to the NRA). Lets say its a long winter and we only shoot 4 monthly matches. Thats 4 bucks times 20 times 4. Theres another 320. Then we pay $6.50 per person for our 140 people at the bigger events. Theres another $910. So without anything else factoring in we are paying $2190 for our club. How many clubs like ours are there? Alot. 10? 50? 100? I have no idea, but the bottom line is we end up paying alot for them to keep records and put on one show a year. And by the way, I would guess they make a tidy profit on nationals each year. The entry fees this year were over $16,000 for smallbore (100 shooters at $160 each). How good of an event could you hold Dustin for 16 grand? I bet for that you could even find trophies to buy that were made in the USA not Turkey.

And how exactly do you think we can get to online match reporting when we still have to snail mail everything in to His Gregliness anyways? We can build and use a system but if it isn't the official system it isn't really worth spit is it?

Sorry I sound so contrary on everything, but I think for all the money we shovel into the NRA we should be getting much better service. I know we are stuck with Greg until he is good and ready to call it quits, but I don't have to like it. We'll talk more when I have an online reporting system finished.

It seems to me that moving away from the NRA would be relatively easy financially. And like you say they really only keep records, and hold nationals (the rules are already made and could be changed as easily by a new committee as the old one). But of course it would only make sense if we could get a lot of clubs to go along. If we split with half in the NRA and half not we could do some serious damage to the sport.

[dustinflint]

I see what you're saying. When I say that the services are basically free, I mean that Greg is going to hold a nationals match and keep up with national records and the committee is going to make rules regardless of how much money we send them.

Most of the expenses you listed do not pay for those services and are not even necessary.

So our 20 members each pay $35 a year for NRA dues. Then $13 each for a book. Thats $960 dollars, just to compete.

That is not all required by the NRA to compete. The NRA dues are not for competition purposes. NRA membership may be required by your club to compete but not by the NRA. That $35 is not going to the competitive shooting division or to the silhouette department. Also, we don't HAVE to buy scorebooks, although most big matches require them per the rules. If we decided to go to an online scoring and classification system, we would have no need for scorebooks and could ignore the NRA rule that we buy one to compete.

We pay a couple bucks each per gun per month (to the NRA).

You guys must register your club matches. Our club matches are Approved, not registered. Approved matches are free. The only difference is that you can not set over the course national records at approved matches but you can for registered matches. You can still set long run records and qualify for grand slams, etc at approved matches.

Then we pay $6.50 per person for our 140 people at the bigger events. Theres another $910.

That money is to make your event a "Regional" match. You can pay half that amount and have the event registered and get all the same benefits. The only difference is that you get a Gold, Silver and Bronze medal for Regional matches plus the Junior winner can go to nationals for free. It really makes no sense to put on a "Regional" match over a "Registered" match.

the bottom line is we end up paying alot for them to keep records and put on one show a year.

But we don't have to. We can send the NRA a lot less money every year and they will still keep records and put on one show a year.

And by the way, I would guess they make a tidy profit on nationals each year. The entry fees this year were over $16,000 for smallbore (100 shooters at $160 each). How good of an event could you hold Dustin for 16 grand? I bet for that you could even find trophies to buy that were made in the USA not Turkey.

My match fees are MUCH less than the NRA's fees and we serve great food - but that is beside the point. Regardless of who is running the nationals, there is going to be an entry fee. If we break away from the NRA completely, someone is going to have to decide where the nationals is every year (and some people are going to be angry) and someone is going to have to keep records and someone is going to have to review, vote on and approve rule changes (and some people are going to be angry)

I am all for pulling some of the responsibility from the NRA that the shooters can do better but if the NRA is willing to do some of this dirty work for us, I say we let it.

Dustin

[Innocent]

My issue is that even this year and nearly every year since 1999 the nationals have been run with some of the awards not being there when the match started. The dates of the nationals have always been known some time in advance so there is no excuse for Greg not making sure the awards are there, and correct.
Secondly, I produced a grandslam yellow form for my smallbore rams and they still refused to acknowledge it. I later reshot the rams but it was at least three years after I had first completed my grand slam, the NRA lost the records sent to them.
At least two national records shot by Jerry Tureau (submitted by me as match director of air rifle then)in air rifle at Winnsboro had to be reconfirmed twice, and to date i do not know if he ever received them.
It remains to be seen if my tie for long run in HP will be acknowledged. I went for a long run in CLA, but rang the 11th pig with a center hit, only to find the next day that the targets were being propped up with rocks. BTW, I finished knocking down the remaining 4 pigs and the next day during warm up shot another ten, followed with a nine in the match.
I do not feel that Greg is even satisfactory in the duties the NRA has assigned him. His foul language during the competitors meeting is unacceptable, and his treatment of competitors that do try to enter is absurd.
Mary

[PhxShooter]

So you know where I'm coming from at the start, I HATE handicapping! Handicapping does nothing but dumb down the sport so "Everyone can be a Winner." I'm sorry but that's not real life. Not everyone can be a winner. You earn the win through practice, dedication, sometimes natural talent and always hard work. Whether you're unwilling or unable to dedicate the resources to be able to out shoot the next guy, so be it.

I shoot CLA, SB and Rifle silhouette. In CLA I'm in Master class in all three guns and have my Grand Slams in all three guns. Why? Because I've worked my A#@ off to get there. I love lever gun silhouette. I practice every week and shoot most of the local matches available. I also do some traveling to shoot and have shot in 4 Nationals.

At our monthly matches the 3rd place, 2nd place and class winners are recognized with pins and not just the match winner. As I worked my way through the classes I was proud of those class wins.

Now when it comes to SB and Rifle silhouette I'm in AA class in both. Why? Because I have not been willing to put in the time and effort to shoot any better than what I do. I have great equipment for both games but not the necessary dedication to significantly improve my shooting. Is it even remotely fair for me, via a handicap system, to win a match against a shooter who has put in the time, effort, money etc., to hone his/her skills well beyond what I'm willing to do? No way in H#@*. If such a system were in place I would refuse the award if I "won".

Regarding the NRA not supporting or promoting silhouette:

The National Sporting Clays Association is a good example of listening to the shooters and making both necessary and appropriate changes to their National Championship procedures. For years the entry fees were high and a good portion of the fees went toward the top money prizes. The participation was stagnant and if I remember correctly was slightly declining. The shooters were getting tired of giving their money to the few shooters out of maybe the top 20 that actually had a chance of winning. I am in Master class but it turned into a donator class because there was just no way I could compete with the Pros. Well a few years back they changed the prize money structuring and you now must buy into the prize money pool and it's optional. There is of course money and other incentives donated by the sponsors. The average shooter no longer pays for the pros to compete. This year the NSCA has in excess of $300,000 in guns they are giving away to the shooters and as of 8/7/14 they have over 1,900 shooters registered for the Nationals and there's still over two months to register. This is an all time record high. Needless to say the NSCA seriously promotes the sport. This was all in response to many disgruntled shooters who were seriously thinking about and actively talking about disassociating themselves from the NSCA and starting their own national governing body for the sport. Personally I can't see the NRA really caring one way or another unless their ILA and PVF funding starts to decline. They are, as has been said before, a political organization.

I've got to say that I agree with OldRanger when he wrote about the awards coming from Turkey. Personally I heard they were from Pakistan but where ever they came from they were junk. I've earned aggregate awards as well as a match win in the past at the CLA nationals and proudly displayed them. This years aggregate award I got is a cheap piece of plastic with a cheap looking piece of printed metal and a pen holder that is way too large for the plastic pen they included. If I don't throw it away it's going in a box in the storage shed for my heirs to deal with when I'm gone. I also feel obligated to say that this years CLA national championship, other than the awards themselves, was the best run one I've attended. It went very smoothly. It also set a record high in attendance.

I honestly don't know what the answers are but IMHO handicapping should not be included.

My $0.02.

[psteiger]

This is GREAT stuff. If you're lurking, time to chime in. I think the class structure is handicapping. By winning your class, you win, but you have the goal of winning overall to strive for. I don't think it's fair that a B shooter can win outright, but I think we need to recognize progress. Personally my goal was to make Master in Std and Hunter. I achieved it. I may never compete for an outright win, but I achieved my goal. I worked my butt off to get there. Even if I shoot a 10/40 I'll be in Master class, no downgrading for me. As much as I hate to say it, the key is recruiting women (yuk) and children. Boy scouts, 4H, we gotta get them out there. Do what the soccer people did. Promote the heck out of it. How do we do that??????

[caseyboy]

Hi All,
From the west coast of Canada, we have our own national silhouette association, Silhouette Rifle Association of Canada (SRAC). This is a break away group from the Shooting Federation of Canada. It was before my time, but I believe it came down to similar issues, silhouette was not being adequately represented or promoted. Our nationals float around the country, however, it must be at a range with the regulation 500m distance for high power. This limits it to about 10 possible location. Next year the nationals are in Prince George, BC which has a newly developed 500m range.
A couple of clubs on Vancouver Island run a Handicap award for each year. I won it one year when I was a AA shooter, which really capped off my year. To basically win the handicap award, you need to be shooting at the top of your class consistently all year.
Cheers Mike

[GregG]

Making money on nationals....give me a break....... $16,000 quoted is still losing money. If anyone has priced the cost of the trophies they hand out, I am betting it is 1,000s (small plaques here are 50 dollars)

After you factor in hotel, meals, travel for the NRA staff. Money for the target setters, NRA range officers, they are losing money and have stated so.

Anyone tried to run a state match understands, even a small match with little prize table cost $2,000.

[dustinflint]

So you know where I'm coming from at the start, I HATE handicapping! Handicapping does nothing but dumb down the sport so "Everyone can be a Winner." I'm sorry but that's not real life. Not everyone can be a winner. You earn the win through practice, dedication, sometimes natural talent and always hard work. Whether you're unwilling or unable to dedicate the resources to be able to out shoot the next guy, so be it.

If club silhouette matches were about teaching the value of hard work and perseverance and outworking the next guy, I'd agree with you. I'm not talking about teaching people life lessons, I'm suggesting ways to get people to the range and interested and coming back for more. The class system is nothing more than a handicapping system. Adding points is just another way to do it that puts everyone in the mix, makes it more interesting, and allows for leagues and tournaments and other games that most clubs wouldn't normally have enough shooters for. I win most of our club matches; if I can give another shooter some points and he beats me with a handicap at a club match, it's fine, I'll be okay. As a high Master shooter, I get more joy out of winning a handicapped club match because it's more of a challenge. It really is fun; but to each his own, we're just talking about club matches and it's just a suggestion. No one is saying we need to redo everything and shoot championship matches with handicaps. We want shooters, shooters, shooters - any way to get new shooters and keep the ones we have is good with us - other people, clubs and places may be different.

As much as I hate to say it, the key is recruiting women (yuk) and children. Boy scouts, 4H, we gotta get them out there. Do what the soccer people did. Promote the heck out of it. How do we do that??????

I agree that it is important to get kids into the game - but I don't think it's the "key." I believe that the best people to get involved are the 30, 40, and 50-something folks. They tend to get involved and help grow things. They run matches and help at matches and come up with ideas and most have some disposable income to spend on gear. When is the last time you saw a teenager shooting at a big match WITHOUT a parent? When is the last time you saw a teenager spend his or her own money on a silhouette rifle? If the parents get involved and enjoy shooting they are much more likely to buy their kids equipment and bring them to the matches. Most of the 4H kids are done with silhouette after the grow out of the 4H game. Most of the kids that I know that come to big matches have at least one parent that brings them to the match. It's a lot easier for parents to drag the kids out than for kids to drag the parents out. Kids are great, but I'd really rather have the parents (actually, I'd rather the whole family come out and shoot).

On the point of kids, though, we do need to have a discussion about intertwining 4H matches with NRA matches and keeping kids in the sport once they're done with 4H.

Dustin

[GregG]

Tired.....All of these types of threads start with the NRA sucks, the nationals sucks, Greg C sucks, etc.

First Greg C, is doing the job his manager has assigned him and appears to be doing it well enough he is going to keep his job until he decides to retire. I do agree the NRA and their match reporting and records are pretty bad.

FACT: The NRA loses money on the competitive shooting divisions of the NRA even with the money we send in. What do you think Greg's salary is, or his assistant or the secretary. I am betting the overall cost per employee at the NRA with benefits, etc is $150,000 a year.

To me breaking away from the NRA solves nothing and in fact in my mind will hurt. Look at IHMSA, they are just about broke.

IMHO it is up to us to promote and do the sale job on silhouette to anyone who will listen. Dustin, you have my support on the original ideas that started this thread.

As stated in an earlier thread one reason, I stopped going to many Pistol matches is I got tired of purchasing Rob Leatham a new rifle/pistol at each match.

A good, well run, friendly match at a reasonable price is all I can ask for. One thing that attracted me to the silhouette group here in Houston was if you show up they will do everything they can to ensure you shoot your first match. They have never stepped away from try my gun, shoot in a match, let me help you.

But even our main club is 2,000+ members but approximately 200 are competitors. How do you turn a casual shooter into a match competitor?

[dustinflint]

This year the NSCA has in excess of $300,000 in guns they are giving away to the shooters and as of 8/7/14 they have over 1,900 shooters registered for the Nationals and there's still over two months to register. This is an all time record high. Needless to say the NSCA seriously promotes the sport.

WOW! THIS is what I'm talking about. THIS is where silhouette needs to be! There is no good reason that silhouette cant have numbers like this!

Dustin

[curmudgeon]

I started shooting Silhouette in December. I don’t have anything to contribute to the discussion about the value of the NRA to the American silhouette community, but I can share some thoughts about why this new shooter continues to show up to local matches.

I like to learn; and there’s a lot for a new shooter to learn. When experienced competitors are willing to share their experience about ammunition, rifles, scopes and suppliers, and are willing to teach and coach shooting technique, then I learn more quickly and I want to come back for more.

I value the competitive camaraderie shared by the regulars and because of their warm welcome and inclusive behaviour I want to come back for more. They celebrated my 5 pin for pigs as much or more than a master shooter’s 10 pin.

I’m competitive by nature and enjoy competing with others in my class, but more importantly, with myself. I’m motivated to improve on my past scores and even though my overall scores don’t improve every match, there’s almost always some new “personal best” that I can celebrate after every match.

In my opinion, a handicap system is only valuable for trying to level the field for a match style competition. In general, many handicap systems reward inconsistent shooters over consistent ones. Acknowledging a handicap match winner wouldn’t improve the silhouette shooting experience for me, but although I’d think it unfair and meaningless, it wouldn’t be enough to keep me away either.

A handicap system will not attract new shooters, and IMO, is unlikely to have a positive effect on retention. Helping new shooters succeed by improving is more useful than fabricating meaningless “wins”.

[Innocent]

When is the last time you saw a teenager shooting at a big match WITHOUT a parent? When is the last time you saw a teenager spend his or her own money on a silhouette rifle? If the parents get involved and enjoy shooting they are much more likely to buy their kids equipment and bring them to the matches. Most of the 4H kids are done with silhouette after the grow out of the 4H game. Most of the kids that I know that come to big matches have at least one parent that brings them to the match. It's a lot easier for parents to drag the kids out than for kids to drag the parents out. Kids are great, but I'd really rather have the parents (actually, I'd rather the whole family come out and shoot).

Dustin, this is where your age really and inexperience shows through. Who do you think controls what the kids do this weekend? You will find as your daughter gets older your wife will have a lot more say about what activities she does than you think. When I was young both my parents were involved in the junior club that I shot in and was an officer of. This was because my parents along with quite a few other parents were active in seeing the children learn the social skills and responsibility of being active in clubs, learning Roberts rules etc.. Today parents are looking for babysitters, "what time do i drop him/her off for practice, what time do I have to pick them up?". We need to involve the women more, to not only introduce them to a much less physically damaging sport (when was the last time you saw a torn tendon, broken arm etc. at a rifle match) as well a more discipline demanding sport. Shooting requires mental discipline, we need to sell these points, much the way martial arts sells the discipline in their sports.
Everyone knows that f Mom is happy then the house is peaceful. Wake up.

Mary