7-08 brass from 308

[Bob Mc Alice]

Well 259, the old Craftsman electric drill trick was a bust. I had to bear down hard for the spit shine you guys love so much. The drill bogged down and started to smell some. Not enough horses or rpm's to git er done.

Sooooo... I snagged an old quarter horse 1725 rpm motor from the maintenance dept. I made up a brush adapter and welded up some scrap for a frame to clamp it to my bench. That fine wire brush loves the speed and ponies to spin her fast. One turn of the case removes all of the loose smoke residue and the caked on carbon scale with out disturbing the nice dark patina I love to see on my brass. I will get through my 2500 rounds in no time flat.

[Bob259]

Still look dirty to me....
This is what clean brass looks like, let us know when you get it looking like this

[Trent]

Guru of carbon deposits, be honest... you need shiny brass these days cause your old ass eyes can't find your dirty brass on the ground anymore.

Oh man, we are losing you to the uh, err... bright side.

[kevinbear]

The shooting sticker bling on the motor is a nice touch!
I figured you would make one that you just insert the case into like an electric pencil sharpener automatically turning it on and cleaning the entire neck in 2 seconds, are you losing your imagination in your old age Bob?

[jask]

The comment that attention to details doesn't matter much in an offhand game is really off base. It doesn't matter what kind of game you play, you should strive to have the most accurate rifle and ammunition possible if you really want to have success. I have not played the silhouette game for quite a while but when I did, I played hard.

The brass I used was Lapau 308. I bought it by the thousands and measured the wall thickness of the cases sorting them for consistency. I kept the best brass for matches. If you want to know how Lapua stacks up, out of 1000 cases, I would get about 100 with less than .001 variation. The majority would be .001 to .002 and the worst maybe a few cases up to .004. In contrast, Remmington, Winchester and Federal brass would have variations of up to .020 or more with ZERO decent brass. When a fired round cools in the chamber, the thick side of the wall contracts more than the thin side. You end up with banana shaped cases. The greater the variation, the more curved the banana. Neck reaming helps to counter some of that but accuracy is all about getting an accurately made bullet to enter the rifling dead on straight and at exactly the same amount of time after the trigger breaks.

I never neck turned. After I made the 7.08, I would neck trim and then neck ream to .002 less than my bullet diameter. After being fired, I would tumble, deprime, neck size, neck trim and neck ream in that order. If you don't think this makes a difference, think again. For the brass that was not less than .001, I would mark the thick spot with a file notch on the rim and always load the notch to the top of the chamber. This makes a huge difference in group size. With my hunter, I got pretty good at loading a clip so the rounds entered the chamber with the notch up. Accuracy is all about consistent vibration patterns.

[Trent]

Jask, that is some great information... but in my opinion, the benchrest level preparation will not gain a person higher scores in silhouette versus "standard" prep. I'm not doubting that your process doesn't produce highly accurate ammo. If a lot of us are shooting 1/2 MOA guns with Winchester brass and minimal prep I just cannot see the hours and hours of extra prep resulting in a higher downed animal count.

Being confident in your ammo is important though. More confidence could correlate into better technique and produce higher scores.

Welcome to Steel Chickens. Are you thinking about making a return to silhouette?

[jask]

You are absolutely wrong about accurate ammo not helping your score. When I was experimenting with case wall measurement, I did a few tests. I fired several rounds with the notch at the top and the same number of rounds with the notch at each 90 deg position. The groups held the same grouping but the location of the groups moved in a 90 degree rotational pattern. If you combine all those groups together, the grouping grows dramatically.

The only way you can guarantee a hit is to always break the trigger inside the animal at least half the diameter of your group size. How would you like for your animals to be a 1/4 MOA larger than your competitor? That's the effect you have.

[jask]

Sometimes I think it might be fun to shoot again but I moved and don't have any area to reload now. What I really need to do is sell some of the euipment that I have. I have more than I would ever again need. I even have brand new rifles in the box that were never fired, a multitude of brass, barrels, etc.

My problem with competition was a catch 22. If the match meant a lot to me, I would release Adrenalin and that would end the day. I clearly remember the day I had a 30 going into turkeys in a .22 match. When I came back up on the line, I could feel a little tingle but I got 4 of them. When I came back on the line for the final 5, I had fully released the adrenalin and I somehow managed to hit 1 out of the five.
When the match was over and the adrenalin had passed, the director gave the command to practice on the remaining animals if we wanted to. I picked up some cheap brown box ely and proceeded to hit 13 turkeys in a row. That was all of them left standing.

So, the catch 22. If I didn't care about the score, I would do great but if I didn't care about the score, I would be off fishing or doing something else. I shot 3 position in school and shot so many targets that I never wanted to see on again. 20 years later and I found silhouette. It was a lot of fun but money was killing the sport. I am as guilty as anyone else for spending money to compete but there was no stopping those like Tubb and Lawton who were running the sport. Lawton even had the gaul to say it didn't matter what he shot, he was going to win anyway so why not allow unlimited rules. The cowboy rifle has brought some sanity back but it will never be the same as back in the 80's.

[Trent]

You are absolutely wrong about accurate ammo not helping your score. When I was experimenting with case wall measurement, I did a few tests. I fired several rounds with the notch at the top and the same number of rounds with the notch at each 90 deg position. The groups held the same grouping but the location of the groups moved in a 90 degree rotational pattern. If you combine all those groups together, the grouping grows dramatically.

The only way you can guarantee a hit is to always break the trigger inside the animal at least half the diameter of your group size. How would you like for your animals to be a 1/4 MOA larger than your competitor? That's the effect you have.

Can you give us some numbers on your brass rotating experiment? I mean, exactly how much do you improve your groups by precisely positioning your brass in the chamber? Keep in mind that I am asking out of true interest. Not trying to start an argument. I'd truly like to know what you found.

I don't think your 1/4moa bigger animal analogy is accurate. Technically you would only gain 1/8 moa since we are talking about circles (1/4moa versus 1/2moa is basically comparing two circles). I see where you are going with your example though. That 1/8moa at Rams is a little over 1/2" which certainly is a measurable gain.

I don't think you'll find anyone here advocating inaccurate ammunition. We all have to draw the line somewhere as to how much prep work and expense we are willing to put into our loads. I think that is true for any shooting sport. We all have different levels of commitment.

[Trent]

Sometimes I think it might be fun to shoot again but I moved and don't have any area to reload now. What I really need to do is sell some of the euipment that I have. I have more than I would ever again need. I even have brand new rifles in the box that were never fired, a multitude of brass, barrels, etc.

My problem with competition was a catch 22. If the match meant a lot to me, I would release Adrenalin and that would end the day. I clearly remember the day I had a 30 going into turkeys in a .22 match. When I came back up on the line, I could feel a little tingle but I got 4 of them. When I came back on the line for the final 5, I had fully released the adrenalin and I somehow managed to hit 1 out of the five.
When the match was over and the adrenalin had passed, the director gave the command to practice on the remaining animals if we wanted to. I picked up some cheap brown box ely and proceeded to hit 13 turkeys in a row. That was all of them left standing.

So, the catch 22. If I didn't care about the score, I would do great but if I didn't care about the score, I would be off fishing or doing something else. I shot 3 position in school and shot so many targets that I never wanted to see on again. 20 years later and I found silhouette. It was a lot of fun but money was killing the sport. I am as guilty as anyone else for spending money to compete but there was no stopping those like Tubb and Larson who were running the sport. Larson even had the gaul to say it didn't matter what he shot, he was going to win anyway so why not allow unlimited rules. The cowboy rifle has brought some sanity back but it will never be the same as back in the 80's.

I certainly know what you mean. On this past Saturday I shot 9 chickens, 9 pigs, 8 turkeys and then proceeded to have a complete suckfest on rams and could only manage 3 rams. My mental game completely decomposed.

[jask]

On this past Saturday I shot 9 chickens, 9 pigs, 8 turkeys and then proceeded to have a complete suckfest on rams and could only manage 3 rams. My mental game completely decomposed.

Mine is a level of confidence that I can hit the targets. When I was in Finland in 98, I was holding really good and had no doubts I could hit the animals. I had been dry firing for days prior to the matches.

At another match, I watched as the French national air rifle champion dropped 40 in a row smallbore. He was a young fellow and had all the personality of a dead fish on and off the line. I would not want to be like that.

As for the accuracy, I kept all my test targets for a long time but they got tossed in the last move. I wish I could take pictures for you but the group size doubled when the notch was rotated. Preparing the brass did not really take much time after the initial sorting. The weighing of the powder was slow since I was using a denver precision scale and weighing to the tenth of a grain.

FYI, for a heavy barrel rifle, you get a decent grouping ever .5 grains in a 7.08 using 4064 and a 168 grain round. For the hunting rifle, you get a grouping every .4 tenths of a grain. Working up a load was simple. I only used 30 rounds. Pick a load from the chart with the velocity you want and load 3 rounds each increasing by .1 grains for 30 rounds. Flip a target over and draw a grid of 10 crosses. As long as you are on the paper, sighting in doesn't matter. let the barrel cool between rounds. The result will be at least one good grouping and you will notice that the group centers vary in a sine wave pattern as the power load changes. That's it for the load workup as long as you do not change powder or primers until the rifling goes. I also chambered the barrel to have the bullet against the rifling. Of course, with a hunting rifle, that is not possible. I used a 700 with a detachable mag and the mag limited the round length. My barrels would last over 3000 rounds because I did not push the rounds a bunch. Once you get over 3000, you need to watch the rifling with a bore scope. Throat erosion is subtle and you may not notice that your rams are going away. If you missed all those rams last week and didn't have a nerve problem, you might take a look at your throat. If you don't have a borescope, cerosafe can give you a fairly good picture also.

Another hint, when you buy a new hunting rifle, cerosafe the chamber before you fire the rifle. If the chamber isn't concentric with the bore, someone else needs to own that rifle.

[kevinbear]

Jask, played to hard and burned out! Spent to much time agonizing over equipment details and by his own admission never conquered the mental game. Ah...the pitfalls of silhouette.
You should go buy some ammunition and a rifle off the shelf and have fun shooting for a change.

[jask]

Kevin, I started out that way using an off the shelf 308 and just dropping powder charges. I played the game until the early 2000's and ran HP matches until the range shut down the matches from lack of participation. The smallbore match went away also. It is all about money and range time. I drove to other matches for while until those matches went away. When I moved, I packed up my shooting stuff and that was it. My wife didn't want to spend her weekends driving to matches.

I love sihouette but we just killed the game. When I first began competition, we would have 50 to 70 at a match. When they closed us down, we were lucky to have 7 or 8 shooters. I even brought extra hunting rifles and ammo for new shooters to shoot but even that failed to increase attendance. It's a hard game and and hard on the ego for new shooters to come out and knock down a handful of animals when others were getting in the 30's. They would look at the equipment and think that is what they need to knock down animals when in reality, the game is just hard and a learned technique. For the last few years, all I ever shot was my 708 hunting rifle but I was not just going to miss animals for the sake of attendance. I shot that rifle just as well as my standard as many others do.

No, I didn't get burned out, the sport died out underneath me.

[kevinbear]

I stand corrected.
The price of ammunition and components has definitely effected my shooting, not so much silhouette but BR-50

[Trent]

Mine is a level of confidence that I can hit the targets. When I was in Finland in 98, I was holding really good and had no doubts I could hit the animals. I had been dry firing for days prior to the matches.

At another match, I watched as the French national air rifle champion dropped 40 in a row smallbore. He was a young fellow and had all the personality of a dead fish on and off the line. I would not want to be like that.

As for the accuracy, I kept all my test targets for a long time but they got tossed in the last move. I wish I could take pictures for you but the group size doubled when the notch was rotated. Preparing the brass did not really take much time after the initial sorting. The weighing of the powder was slow since I was using a denver precision scale and weighing to the tenth of a grain.

FYI, for a heavy barrel rifle, you get a decent grouping ever .5 grains in a 7.08 using 4064 and a 168 grain round. For the hunting rifle, you get a grouping every .4 tenths of a grain. Working up a load was simple. I only used 30 rounds. Pick a load from the chart with the velocity you want and load 3 rounds each increasing by .1 grains for 30 rounds. Flip a target over and draw a grid of 10 crosses. As long as you are on the paper, sighting in doesn't matter. let the barrel cool between rounds. The result will be at least one good grouping and you will notice that the group centers vary in a sine wave pattern as the power load changes. That's it for the load workup as long as you do not change powder or primers until the rifling goes. I also chambered the barrel to have the bullet against the rifling. Of course, with a hunting rifle, that is not possible. I used a 700 with a detachable mag and the mag limited the round length. My barrels would last over 3000 rounds because I did not push the rounds a bunch. Once you get over 3000, you need to watch the rifling with a bore scope. Throat erosion is subtle and you may not notice that your rams are going away. If you missed all those rams last week and didn't have a nerve problem, you might take a look at your throat. If you don't have a borescope, cerosafe can give you a fairly good picture also.

Another hint, when you buy a new hunting rifle, cerosafe the chamber before you fire the rifle. If the chamber isn't concentric with the bore, someone else needs to own that rifle.

Thanks for the post jask. That is pretty much how I do my load development (OCW). I may have to test the brass rotation myself and see if I can duplicate your results. I pretty much only use Winchester 7-08 brass and honestly haven't taken any measurements on it other than checking the concentricity of my loaded rounds.

There are still a bunch of guys running off the shelf rifles in HP though. The sport hasn't gone 100% exotic. I myself shoot a factory R700 in 7-08 on it's second factory barrel and a stock I made myself from a walnut blank. Shoots well and I have a lot of fun. The only people that excel in this sport are people that love a challenge. Like you said, the difficulty scares a lot of people away. I have the hardest time even getting people to come try it though. I have even started offering free rimfire ammo to people if they just show up and give it a try. On some local sportsmen forums I am on I started offering 100rnds of free rimfire ammo to all new shooters, and I would let them use my rifle and I provide the ammo for the match... nothing. I am now offering 200rnds for free and still nothing. You cannot hardly BUY rimfire ammo right now and I cannot get people to come shoot for free and collect FREE ammo. Nuts.

All the rams I missed last week were in smallbore, sorry should have stated that. I wish I could shoot that well in high power silhouette!! Maybe if I put in more practice!