Why is this rifle illegal?

[durant7]

Tony, thanks for the background on how Cowboy evolved.

In NH we start new shooters on something we call Club Rifle. Simply 1/2 scale targets any any scoped gun. Once a shooter hits 30 or more targets they graduate from Novice to Expert and move over to the 1/2 scale PC targets. This means your shot placement on Rams matters. I think we have erred in that folks think Club Rifle is a real game when infact it is just an introduction. Those large targets can reward a poor trigger technique. But folks go from 35 animals to 12 when they try 1/5th. Their sight setting need to be made more precise. I babble.

Net net, I don't see anyone worried about the future of the sport. But here are some options.

Spec Hunter class (list of approved factory guns) CZ452/455, NS522, Rem 541/581, etc etc. Say we pick 40 rifles. Since there are so many 3-9 scopes, hold the max power at 9. Ammo must be of USA mfg. No aftermarket anything including triggers. Max weight 8 lbs, allow non tapered barrels to include Savage mfg guns but that would be defined by the list of guns.

Spec Lever Hunter class. (List of lever guns allowed) But allow scopes. I am often tempted to put a scope on my 39A and use it for SBHR. But then I would mess up my SBCB rifle. This would let new shooters buy an entry level gun and use it for both SBCB and the 1/5th game. If they get hooked, they can then decide how serious a bolt gun they want to get.

Just thinking aloud. It is raining, cold and not an outdoors day. I don't see too many club directors wanting to source 3/8 animals.

[dustinflint]

Spec Lever Hunter class. (List of lever guns allowed) But allow scopes.

That's a joke, right?

Dustin

[hugh]

until they make equivalent left handed guns you can go piss up a rope. with all the bitchin done, y'all have no idea what it's like to try and shoot some of your "spec" guns from the other side. You want a spec class, cz 452 americans and anschutz 64's. That's it. Current production, and obtainable. and no, lever guns are not ambi. I had a case rupture on my 39A and got a face full of crap. Fortunately I always wear protection, but the otherside wouldn't have hardly noticed. The way it is now I have comparable equipment with my 54MS.

[durant7]

Oh well. Another Steelchicken's cerebral thread reduced to banal whining.

No, I am not joking about a scoped lever gun. I believe Robert Massey shot a AAA score with an iron sight on a 39A at WInnsboro. I was not there, I only heard about it but I have no doubt it is true. Imagine his results with a scope.

Two of our top shooters in NH are LH. They both have Grand Slam pins for PCCLA and SBCR. Chris Winstead shot a LH 54 as a RH shooter. Why? Because it forced him to slow down.

Moving on, if any match directors would like to explore a pilot program next year aimed at attracting new shooters, contact me off line.

durant7

[dustinflint]

Oh well. Another Steelchicken's cerebral thread reduced to banal whining.

No, I am not joking about a scoped lever gun. I believe Robert Massey shot a AAA score with an iron sight on a 39A at WInnsboro. I was not there, I only heard about it but I have no doubt it is true. Imagine his results with a scope.

No doubt that the rifle is capable of shooting good scores, and I've shot high scores on 1/5 scale targets with my SBCR rifle; it just seems sad to put a scope on a nice lever gun!

Dustin

[jrebelo]

I don't have much to add to the discussion except that as a newer (and passionate) entrant to the sport, I find the overlap between the hunter and standard class to be a bit silly and I am not a fan of the "race gun" types of firearms I see some of the high level shooters using at competitions. Guns with bloop tubes and ring weights wrapped around the barrel and every other possible rule pushed to the limit. I was personally drawn to silhouettes because I perceived it as being geared towards traditional style guns shooting a traditional style sport. I know the tricked out standard rifles are legal, but I agree with some of the sentiments that I've seen here that some of the equipment that people are able to afford can make the sport look like an equipment game to the uninitiated - which is a detractor for many people. Perhaps not surprisingly, I'm always in favour of rules being oriented to focus on the competitor over the equipment, such as the previously mentioned SCCA "Spec" racing series'.

[Jason]

You may want to check on the actual classifications of all of those shooters with fancy rifles at the big matches. Many of them aren't master class shooters, but just those who have been in the sport a while and have decided to devote more resources into having a rifle that's customized just for them. If there ever was a shooting sport that results were defined by the shooter instead of the equipment, it's silhouette. I have seen a $3000 custom rifle in the hands of a B class shooter shoot a B class score more times than I can count. I have also seen a master class shooter shoot a master class score and win a match (including beating me and my Anschutz) with a Wal-Mart special Marlin model 60 with a 20+ year old Weaver 12X scope shooting Automatch ammo, also from Wal-Mart. I should have known better than to tell him to try the Automatch ammo.

The rules of this game already do emphasize the shooter over the equipment, just by being shot standing without the extra jackets, pants and other items that are used in Olympic rifle matches. Expensive rifles, scopes, and ammo don't really change it that much.

[Grantmac]

Almost any current-production barreled action can shoot small enough groups to win. What makes the big difference seems to be the stock and trigger. That is where the big money is spent moving into an Annie (trigger) and then more is spent going to an aftermarket stock.

One solution would be to disallow 2-stage triggers in Hunter class, that lets all the Savage and CZ actions to compete on a very even footing with the big money guns.

As for the stock issue: it's kind of like trap shooting. Sure you can shoot trap with any shotgun, but it's a heck of a lot easier with one which is set-up to fit you precisely and get the right sight picture.

If a decent stock design could be made and then given to Boyds to reproduce then that becomes a nearly non-issue. Whether enough could be sold for them to care is another question.

I am fairly new to the sport and I shoot a CZ455. The only place I find it really lacking is the stock. I have shot high AAA scores with it, but I'm realistically a mid-AA shooter.

-Grant

Edit: Drop the silly barrel taper rule for hunter. Who cares what shape the barrel is (except reverse taper and tuners) so long as the gun meets weight. Could enable a lot of CZ455 varmint and Savage shooters (plus 10/22 if we must) to play in a category which is much more suitable to their equipment.

[Trent]

Everyone needs to get off this idea that nice/expensive equipment is to blame for scaring people away from the sport. That is like saying that guys going to a bracket race at the local drag strip are scared away by the fast shiny cars. That's why its called BRACKET RACING. You only race against people in your bracket regardless of how shiny or expensive their car is. We have brackets... except we call them classes instead. Gun people aren't scared away from nice guns. Gun people are attracted to them!

There is only one thing that scares people away from this game and that is because its... HARD!! People don't come back because they are afraid to really challenge themselves.

[psteiger]

There is only one thing that scares people away from this game and that is because its... HARD!! People don't come back because they are afraid to really challenge themselves.

amen Trent

The best shooting gun at any of the matches around here is usually being held by Bill Motl or Elisabeth. Elisabeth shoots an Anschutz 1710. No aftermarket barrel, no 2 stage trigger, but she does have a fancy Pharr stock, bought used for $125. I saw Bill shoot a 37/40 with an NS522. Quit whining about the guns.

Pat

[dustinflint]

There is only one thing that scares people away from this game and that is because its... HARD!! People don't come back because they are afraid to really challenge themselves.

amen Trent

The best shooting gun at any of the matches around here is usually being held by Bill Motl or Elisabeth. Elisabeth shoots an Anschutz 1710. No aftermarket barrel, no 2 stage trigger, but she does have a fancy Pharr stock, bought used for $125. I saw Bill shoot a 37/40 with an NS522. Quit whining about the guns.

Pat

I agree with Trent and Pat. The nice rifles attract way more shooters to silhouette than they scare off. New shooters at our matches spend more time looking at the rifles than anything else. I don't care what people shoot. The equipment is not the key to this game.

That said, lets open up the Standard rules so I'll have an excuse to buy one of those FWBs that I started this thread with. I want one!

Dustin

[GregG]

All, I think many shooters have focused on the cost of the firearm and think, "if it were cheap" everyone would shoot. Logical but wrong in my mind. A very smart person here in Houston Bill M, said one time, people will spent 50,000 on a bass boat, then 50,000 on a truck to tow it around, then thousands on fishing gear to catch 3 small fish.

So it is not cost. Many older sports are struggling IHMSA, NRA Silhouette (Rifles, and Pistol), while newer sports IDPA, IPSC, etc are thriving. They are not the IT sport, they are not tactical, they are not 3 gun.

A local IDPA club here fills up monthly with over 90 shooters while the local silhouette match gets 15-18. The BRI 1000 yard range gets 30 long range shooters each month.

All the above can and do use expensive firearm arms and in many cased cost more than a silhouette rifle.

I believe the reason silhouette has low turn out it is hard. You got to be tough to be happy with a starting score of 2 - 3. This is how I started with High-power and was very happy when I broke 10.

Sorry, IMHO it is not the cost or equipment.


Gerg

[cedestech]

Greg is right. I started with a $100 rifle and $50 scope. The game is alot like golf. Very dry and no immediate gratification. If you have to
get a particapation trophy then it's not the sport for you.

[stsbuyer]

There is only one thing that scares people away from this game and that is because its... HARD!! People don't come back because they are afraid to really challenge themselves.

amen Trent

The best shooting gun at any of the matches around here is usually being held by Bill Motl or Elisabeth. Elisabeth shoots an Anschutz 1710. No aftermarket barrel, no 2 stage trigger, but she does have a fancy Pharr stock, bought used for $125. I saw Bill shoot a 37/40 with an NS522. Quit whining about the guns.

Pat

I will have to disagree with Pat on one thing. Bill and Elisabeth guns do not shoot any better than the other guns on the line. It is there ability that gives them the edge over guys like me and most everyone else shooting at the match. I can guarantee that if we gave everyone the same gun and ammo to shoot the outcome of the match would be the same. Of course allowing the rifle to be fitted in length and properly sighted in. I know that when I steep up to the line my equipment is as good or better than most anything on the line. Just as Greg and others have said this game is hard and if you can't deal with disappointment and are unwilling to do the work it takes to improve then rifle silhouette is not for you.

Everyone have fun in Winnsboro,

[Merlin]

All, I think many shooters have focused on the cost of the firearm and think, "if it were cheap" everyone would shoot. Logical but wrong in my mind. A very smart person here in Houston Bill M, said one time, people will spent 50,000 on a bass boat, then 50,000 on a truck to tow it around, then thousands on fishing gear to catch 3 small fish.

So it is not cost. Many older sports are struggling IHMSA, NRA Silhouette (Rifles, and Pistol), while newer sports IDPA, IPSC, etc are thriving. They are not the IT sport, they are not tactical, they are not 3 gun.

A local IDPA club here fills up monthly with over 90 shooters while the local silhouette match gets 15-18. The BRI 1000 yard range gets 30 long range shooters each month.

All the above can and do use expensive firearm arms and in many cased cost more than a silhouette rifle.

I believe the reason silhouette has low turn out it is hard. You got to be tough to be happy with a starting score of 2 - 3. This is how I started with High-power and was very happy when I broke 10.

Sorry, IMHO it is not the cost or equipment.


Gerg

Please bear with me. A view from a long time, well seasoned and experienced shooter... In OTHER shooting sports.

I shoot USPSA, IDPA and a Lot of 3 Gun. Locally there is at least one match every weekend and every other weekend there are two matches. (USPSA,IDPA, 3GUN or Carbine) Our local carbine matches, put on by 2 different clubs (2 matches a month)- get 40 shooters with rifles costing over a grand, on the average, plus optics..... A good competitive 3 Gun set up costs ~9-10K and 3 Gun is really taking off with major matches stopping registration at 150-200 shooters and selling out in minutes on some matches. The average distance of a shot in USPSA and/or IDPA is less than 10 yards - at a target 22.5"x35".The average USPSA 2011 type pistol is well over 3K plus ~100-130 per magazine 4 or 5 needed plus holsters and belts and and and...... It does not require a super duper accurate (3,400.00) gun to shoot a huge target at less than 10 yards but people still pay huge dollars for their equipment....

I am just getting into this sport. From what I can see - I think that my Silhouette rifles - both the Standard and Hunter HP and various smallbore - all of them pretty much as good as they get - don't individually cost as much as my average handgun or rifle/shotgun for any of the other sports I shoot. The rifle shown in the first post of this thread would not gain me another turkey or get me a 5 in a row pin..... It is not the cost. It is not the equipment. It is that Silhouette is damned hard to shoot well. Really.

Want to see more people shooting 2MOA (inexpensive) rifles? Make the sport easier -Use bigger targets?

my .02 and probably overpriced at that....