.22 WMR for PC?

[Washita]

I'm thinking about shooting the PC matches at my local club. I don't have a rifle for it, am considering either a .22 WMR Henry (20") or a 24" Rossi M92 in .357 mag. (would likely use .38 Spl) Will the WMR reliably take down the rams at 100m? That could be the deciding factor--it'd be nice not to have to pick up brass at my advanced old age! ;)

[Bob259]

Go with the .357 you will not be sorry. Hear stories about a lot of guys losing some Rams with the .22 Mag's.

[Jason]

The winning scores for our cowboy tournament were shot with a 22 mag..



The ram loads were not factory loads, though. There is no factory 22WMR load that will take down the pistol cartridge targets reliably. My loads are factory 50gr Federal "classic" loads with the factory powder replaced by 7.1gr of H110. Unless you are going to undertake reloading for a rimfire, Bob is very much right. Go with the 357. You can load it up with some soft-shooting loads that still take the rams down.

[Tlee]

Washita -

I have, and still use both for PCCLA. There are times I don't have the inclination to shoot the 357 in that game (like when/if I don't have anything loaded for it, or my son is shooting it). So I do still shoot the 22mag regularly. No doubt the 38/357 will take down the Rams more reliably, but I can say that in 3 years of shooting PCCLA with my Henry in 22 mag, I've only lost maybe 2 Rams IF I use the 50gr Federal 757 bullets (for Rams only). I use Fiochi SP or Federal 737 (both 40gr bullets) on the C-P-T lines and they work fine for those.

Some of the stories I've heard about 22mag not taking down Rams reliably came from Hunter Pistol Silhouettes... Although I have and prefer 22Hornet for that game, I also have a 10" 22mag barrel for the Contender that I'll shoot occasionally (if I'm short on 22Hornet loads). I HAVE lost more Rams out of the 10" Contender than my PCCLA rifle using 22mag, so I'd classify it as marginal for Hunter Pistol....

Having said that though, it's my opinion that it's a lot more fun shooting any of the silhouette games with what you have than not shooting at all, even if you do occasionally lose a target (I shot my 22LR for a couple years in PCCLA, until I could justify/afford a gun for PCCLA)! Now that I think of it, this year alone I've lost more SBCLA Rams and turned more Chickens/Turkeys (that didn't fall) using high velocity 22LR than all the Rams I've lost in 3 years with 22mag in PCCLA.... So it's probably as much as mud on the target's foot, wind, dumb luck, etc as it is cartridge selection that cost me targets.

my .02,

-Tim

[Washita]

Well, so far at least, that makes it unanimous. I have no interest in pulling bullets & replacing powder, so it looks like .357 will be it if I take up PC silh. Recoil is unlikely to be an issue with any reasonable .38 spl or .357 mag load in a 7-lb rifle, so there seems no good reason not to go with the .357 Rossi. Anybody think otherwise?

Thanks, guys.

[Washita]

Oops! I wrote my reponse before reading all the replies. Sorry, Tlee!

[Bob259]

The longer sight radius of the Rossi makes it a good choice.

[Tlee]

Oops! I wrote my reponse before reading all the replies. Sorry, Tlee!

Washita -

No prob.... I'm not trying to talk you out of getting a 357, just letting you know the 22mag CAN be used in PCCLA..... Sometimes other priorities dictate we don't have the time to load (or shoot) exactly what we'd prefer to for a given task. Doesn't mean we shouldn't shoot what we already have available, just my opinion. Regardless, I do know a lot of AAA and Master class shooters that use 22mag very successfully for the PCCLA game.... so it can be done.

BTW, the 50gr Federals I use for PCCLA are "right out of the box" (not modified/hot loaded). Although it might take them down more reliably, I'm a bit nervous using a hot loaded 22mag, at least in my lever action. I've considered trying "modified 22mags" in my Contender for Hunter Pistol, but then I reason modifying 22mag loads is as much or more trouble than simply loading more 22Hornet, LOL! Especially since I can use a 55gr bullet in the 22Hornet.

just another .02,

-Tim

[Jason]

Perhaps our PC cowboy rams are harder to knock down than others, but the 50-grain Federal classic loads with the factory powder left about 15% standing on good body hits. It also didn't shoot well due to the longer, heavier bullet not having the velocity for the twist rate of most 22 mag barrels to stabilize it well. Since you already have the 357, I'd use that.

Edit: My fault. I misread and it thought you already had a 357 and a 22 Mag and were asking which to use. If you don't have either, I would definitely not buy a 22 Mag just for PC cowboy if you want to be competitive unless you intend to replace powder. If you just want to get out and have a fun day of shooting, you can do that with your 22lr. If you want all of the targets that you hit to fall, then you have to hit them hard enough to accomplish that. As shown above, I have good sucess with my 22 Mag. I use the CCI TMJ (best accuracy of the 8 loads I tried) for chickens, pigs, and turkeys, and the 50gr loads with powder replaced and the bullets seated .010" off the lands for rams.

[Tlee]

Perhaps our PC cowboy rams are harder to knock down than others, but the 50-grain Federal classic loads with the factory powder left about 15% standing on good body hits.....(snip)

Jason -

There's the rub... I seldom HAVE "good body hits", LOL! My "wooble factor" dictates most of my hits are in the horn, the feet/legs, the "dinger", etc. Seriously though... Over the years I've only lost a couple out of the lever action with the 50gr Federals, maybe 3, and those are usually with center body/shoulder hits. I've lost a LOT more than that using the 10" Contender though (shooting the same PC animals with the same ammo), so it's pretty obvious to me that the reduced velocity out of the 10" barrel has a big affect on dropping the Ram. Also, on accuracy.... although both guns shoot the 40gr bullets into a tighter group... For me, both are shooting the 50gr Federals into an acceptably accurate group for Rams (about a 2" group for the Contender, a bit better for the Lever Action).

Doesn't surprise me that a healthy dose of H110/W296 would be about perfect and give a little extra oomph to the 50gr bullets. BTW... Do you know if anyone has tried LilGun in the 22mag loads? It has a significantly lower peak pressure than H110/W296 and I find it to shoot well out of everything I've tried it in (22Hornet hunting loads, 32mag, and 357mag loads). I easily get the H110/W296 velocities out of it (and sometimes faster yet.... my LilGun 34gr Hornet load averages 2950FPS out of my Savage bolt gun... I never saw anything better than 2600 out of a max H110/W296 load with that bullet).

-Tim

[Jason]

I don't know anyone who has tried LilGun. I have only tried different loads of H110 and only loads that were verified by those I trust as being safe in many different guns. Supposedly the max that anyone I know of has tried with H110 is 7.3 or 7.4 grains, but that might be a little risky with a weak gun design and very hot weather. My Marlin 57M is a very strong design and shoots great with 7.1gr. I've never lost a ram with it, so I don't see a need to go any higher. I think I remember CscAL losing a ram or two with that load, though. It was someone who posts on this forum for sure. The 50gr classic loads don't shoot well at all for me as they come from the factory. If I didn't replace the powder for my 22 Mag loads, I'd just use a different gun.

When I first started cowboy matches, anything to get me out there shooting was fine. Now that I'm flirting with a 40/40 on a good day, I have to have every hit fall. I've got 39s in both smallbore and pistol cartridge cowboy and a 38/40 in smallbore hunter rifle. If I do all I can to make sure my equipment's up to the task and use good discipline every shot, I keep trying to believe that I'll get a 40/40 eventually.

[Tlee]

Jason -

Thanks for the info... Maybe we can talk Al into trying some of the LilGun? How about it Al?

Seriously though, experimenting with any powder in a cartridge where it wasn't originally designed to go kinda makes me a bit nervous... And I'm especially nervous about H110/W296 due to it's high peak pressure. I used to load a lot of H110/W296 for 32mag and 357mag but have pretty much switched over to LilGun instead, mainly because it seems to be less primer and "tenth of a grain" fussy.... likely because of it's reduced peak pressure (I've yet to see pressure signs with it... whereas I used to see them quite regularly with H110/W296, even in middle of the chart loads).

Yep... you're way ahead of me and need them ALL to fall then... I'm still AA and yet to fire a AAA leg in PCCLA. Heck, I just fired my 1st AAA leg in SBCLA during the Nationals at Raton. Son is now AAA in both and the last AAA PCCLA leg he did was with the 357. Although I don't notice the difference (at least yet), he claims the 24" barrel on the 357 is helping him some over the 20" barrel on the Henry 22mag.


-Tim

[Washita]

What bullet & MV do y'all load for your .38/.357's? For that matter, do you use .38 Spl or .357 Mag. cases? Cast or jacketed bullets? And finally, what's your opinion of the Rossi with 24" octagon barrel? Accuracy good? How is the trigger: good as-is or trigger job req'd? Is this rifle mechanically same as the Mod. 92 Winchester? I know they look alike, but are they identical internally?

OK,I know I'm asking a lot. But if ya don't ask ya on't get!

[Tlee]

What bullet & MV do y'all load for your .38/.357's? For that matter, do you use .38 Spl or .357 Mag. cases? Cast or jacketed bullets? And finally, what's your opinion of the Rossi with 24" octagon barrel? Accuracy good? How is the trigger: good as-is or trigger job req'd? Is this rifle mechanically same as the Mod. 92 Winchester? I know they look alike, but are they identical internally?

OK,I know I'm asking a lot. But if ya don't ask ya on't get!

Washita -

I've little experience with the Rossi, having only borrowed and shot one at one match years ago. I do have a couple buddies that have them and seem to like them. I have a Marlin 1894 in 357 with a 24" barrel and I do like it, now that I've finally figured out that it won't shoot plain lead bullets. Other's results may be different, but I've discovered that my Marlin will only shoot either gas-checked lead or jacketed bullets accurately.

Below is a cut-n-paste from another thread on the Marlin owners website that documents what my son and I shot in the Marlin at Raton a couple weeks ago (some added comments in parenthesis):
-------------------------
We opted for a very light recoil 1100FPS 125gr JHP load in (half-scale) PCCLA and everything with even a half bullet hit fell, no problem. (Although 5gr of Unique shoots it almost identically, I wound up using 4.5gr of 700X because I have more of it and it meters without shearing through my powder measures better than Unique).

In (full sized) CLA we shot 1100FPS 158gr HP and SP loads at the Chicken and Pig, all hits fell without issue. I intended to use the same load on Turkeys but ran out of sight adjustment and had to use my Ram loads on them as well. (Similar to the 125g loads above, 6gr of Unique shoots the 158gr at about 1100FPS, but I wound up using 5gr of 700X for the reasons above. This load would also be a good one for PCCLA as it's very low recoil and has nearly zero chance of damaging the targets, while being 100% effective in taking down everything it touches).
--------------------------

BTW, although the thread the above came from has turned into a discussion of using 357 for the full sized CLA course of fire, you may find some other good loads for PCCLA listed there as well... the link to that thread is:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 246.0.html

-Tim

PS - I use nothing but 357 cases. I shot both 38 and 357 cases in a revolver for years and got tired of cleaning the carbon ring caused by shooting 38s in a 357 length cylinder. Didn't want to have the same issue when swapping between them in the rifle so I only use 357 cases in it, even when downloading to 38special velocities.

[cslcAl]

Tim, I really like Lil' Gun; but I'll reserve it for my 25-20. I have re-loaded hundrededs of the 50 gr. Federals with Jason's 7.1 H-110 load with no problems; but someone else verified that and I am not going to risk damaging a mint 9422 Winchester Legacy trying Lil' Gun. I honestly never lost rams with the factory loaded ammo the few times I shot them in matches; but the reloaded ones really pack more wallop. I chronographed mine at around 1900 fps. and they grouped a lot better that the factory version. I did however lose 3 rams last year at our Pa. state match with the hot loads. It was raining and the rails were wet and muddy, which makes the animals stick like glue sometimes. That really stung as I had hit 58 animals of 60 and only 55 counted, costing me a national record. My solution to this was a 92 Winchester in 25-20. Zero lost rams this year and a 3rd place in PCLA at Raton. I still shoot my .22 mag some. It really is my favorite gun to shoot, plus NO RELOADING!!!!!!! Well, less reloading!! Al