St.Louis MO HP Regional Match

[Bob Mc Alice]

Hey 259, I may have to build me a 6.5 something if that action does not sell soon. I have it listed on three websites with the new price...lots of looks but no sale yet. You know the economy is in the toilet when you cant sell a nice Remington short action for a fair price.

[Bob259]

Hey 259, I may have to build me a 6.5 something if that action does not sell soon. I have it listed on three websites with the new price...lots of looks but no sale yet. You know the economy is in the toilet when you cant sell a nice Remington short action for a fair price.

I saw that Bob.. I was surprised it didn't sell in less then an hour to tell you the truth. Of course when I was looking for one none were to be had at that time.

Your right about the economy and it's not looking much better from what I see in our industry, as we see usually any up turn sooner then on the street, but no such signs yet. The wife lost 10% of her pay over a year ago and they just told them they are not getting it back and may have to give up more But the exec's still have their corporate jet and perks... does not make for happy campers and you know how it is when the wife isn't happy ;)

[Snake]

Why would a fella bother with 6.5? They are not very flexible (i.e. no heavy bullets available)....those of you recoil sensitive folks could always load 120's or 140's in a 7mm and still have a cartridge capable of 168 or 175...so what's the 6.5 advantage?

[ldholton]

with a high bc bullet such as sie. 142 pushed around 2600-2007 hits rams as hard as any thing with less recoil

[Snake]

Well shucks....High BC!!!! BC varies with velocity, air density etc...at best listed BC's are compromise listings sorta like one size fitting all or like all women are the same. As for recoil the powder charges are about the same for 7-08 or 260 but the 260 forces the pressure through a smaller opening; so aside form the variable or rifle weight recoil is about the same except that the 7-08 1s carrying a reliable 168.....further the throat life of 6.5's ..because of the high flame length..tends to be a lot shorter. The real Ram power comes from bullet length coupled with weight...so while the 6.5 is long it lacks weight. I suggest a gym membership to alleviate recoil sensitivity. 6.5 is a myth

[Jim Beckley]

I am trying to think of the last Nationals that was won with a 7-08, my best guess is in 2002 when Antonio Lopez won it in Raton, I saw him at the Az and the Tx state match this year and at one of them I ask him if he was still shooting a 7-08 and he said that he was using a .260. McAlice, I am at odds with myself which one to tell you to get first a 6.5 or a cell phone, it's 2010 by the way!

[Bob Mc Alice]

Go get 'em Snake. For those that don't know, Snake graduated top in his class from 7mm Guru academy. He was my favorite student.

JB....high power silhouette is shot with .284 and .308 diameter bullets.....period. Man up.

I wont ever own a pick up newer than my trusty 92 F150.

A cellphone will never be in my possession. I am not communication dependent.


Have you got your airline ticket bought yet ?

[Innocent]

McAlice, no cell phone, and still on 7mm, sorry to hear your life stopped in 92!!!

JB, go to St Louis, borrow the Guru's rifle and beat him with it.

Innocent

[Jim Beckley]

I hope it's not too windy in St. Louis, if you and Bonner aren't at the airport, I'll be sending up smoke signals, kind of like the stone ages, or shooting a 7mm. E-mail me Dave's cell number, he shoots a 6.5, so I'm sure he has one!

[ldholton]

well recoil diff from 6.5 to 7 is vry little there is a diff. but i have shot 308 7-08 .260 and that mythacial 6.5 has lost the fewest rams will stick what works for me and the gym ? want to wrestle that one out ? lol

[Bob Mc Alice]

With all else equal (example: two like rifles set up and weighing the same ) the .264 142gr. MK launched at 2700 fps MV delivers about 1100 ft. lbs of remaining energy at 500 meters. That is enough power to knock over the rams most of the time. Driving it faster will produce more energy but will result in excess bullet blow up, (they all blow up and turn to tiny fragments) less dwell time , more recoil and much shorter throat life. There are no two rams that will respond the same to like hits regardless of what caliber and weight it is hit with. We have come to the agreement over the decades that 900 to 950 ft.lbs. is the bare minimun energy needed to tip over an "average" ram... with proper placement. And that is what a hot and heavy bullet .243 Win. ram load will do. Consiquently, lots of rams are rung with this cartridge.The .284 168gr. MK at 2650 fps. MV (my recipe) slams into the rams with approximately 1500 ft. lbs. of remaining energy. For a mere 2 ft.lbs. more of felt free recoil (11 vs. 13)(note: a typical 180 gr.factory .30-06 hunting load has twice the felt free recoil. ) I would rather have the 400 ft.lb. advantage the 7mm has over the 6.5. Besides, we wear vests with padded shoulders and only fire 10 shots at rams in a 40 shot match. Few people would say they can actually feel a two pound recoil difference between the .260 and the 7-08 shooting typical ram loads.

Bear in mind that foot pounds of energy is mainly directed towards the remaining terminal flesh and bone smashing power of bullets on game animals. How it relates to soft lead bullets impacting hard steel is totally different dynamics.

ldholton, if you have shot this match before I am sure we have met. Look me up in a couple of weeks, lets shoot the breeze over a couple of beers and that Saturday night dinner in the Club Med clubhouse.

[lone ringer]

Bob, first let me say that I agree with most of what you say in regards to the ram loads you mentioned but they are better ram loads for both calibers. I myself like the Sierra 175 Mk in 7mm for rams and for the 6.5 we also have wonderful Lapua bullets in 139 and 144gr for rams. If you don't mind paying for the custom bullets Bob Cauterusio makes 141, 147 and 151in 6.5mm those bullets are hard to beat when shot at ram distance with the proper powder charge.
Where I disagree with you as far as 7mm cal are concerned is the lack of bullets for short range that rival the ones found for 6.5mm. If some company like Sierra, Hornady or Lapua would made a good (read VLD) 125 to 140gr then the 7mm's would have the edge but with bullets like the 107,108,123 the 6.5 shines and bucks the wind much better than the 7mm's and nobody can argue that without going to a much heavier bullets. Less recoil and better ballistics translate to better scores and you can't hardly find a Master shooter that is not using some kind of 6.5mm. Dan T designed a reamer for 7mmBR that used the fantastic 6BRmm Lapua brass and when loaded with the 175gr Sierra and some 140gr custom bullet would perform on paper better than any 6.5mm. Jared Perry shot it in CA and did very well with it but when he took it to Ridgway, PA he rang rams with it like anybody else. To be fair I will tell you that if I was only shooting a Standard rifle I would not mind using a 7mm (I still have a 7mmTCU, a 7mmIHMSA and a 7mm-08. Jim Feren has always done really well with his 7-08 but he only shoots Standard rifle class. The difference in felt recoil between a 9 or a 10.2 lbs rifle is substantial and scores were not as good when we shot 308's and 7-08's in Hunting rifle. We need to take into consideration things like that and not only the 10 rounds fired at rams with both calibers.

[Bob Mc Alice]

Tony, I fully agree with your thoughts on the lack decent short range CPT bullets in 7mm. No where and time did I see how badly my 130 MK drifted than was at Raton last year.That stiff SW wind really blew those bullets to the right ..some 5 minutes of correction if I remember at turkeys. I have used this bullet with great results for a long time driven at only 2550 FPS. Most recently I started using a 500 pack of 150gr.MK's I won at St.Louis last year. I have upped the speed to 2725 FPS and they shoot fantastic as you would expect from a good bullet. They also knock our rams over reliably. This is probably the best one can get right now for a decent CPT pill in 7mm. The 130 (left) has a .390BC....150(center) @.429 and the 168(right) is rated at .495 at the speed I shoot them at.Time will tell how well they perform at one of the up coming windy matches at CRC. Thanks for your input.

[Jason]

I think I'll stick with the 6.5mm Lapua 123 and 139-grain Silver Scenars, listed by the Lapua website (so not sure if it's true or not) at .547 and .615, respectively.

[Snake]

Holy cow! it seems that there is something to the "birds on the wire" theory of why guys flock to certain calibers, equipment etc! Look at sectional density....BC varies with velocity...Sectional Density has more to do with the transfer of energy to the target than BC. If you want a premium custom 7mm bullet use the JLK 168 or 180. They are made for long range. Back to the 6.5.....hero worship is not a reason to use one. From a ballistic design point of view the ballistically perfect bullet design is the the secant ogive 7mm. AND it has the sectional density to carry the day. 6.5 is very cute but why bother. By the way...I have just acquired a whole bunch of moly coating material and equipment....if interested let me know cause I'll let it go Cheap, Cheap