High Power Bullets

[22284]

I should have added in the original post that I feel bullet construction does not really matter from one brand to another when impacting steel. This is just one mans opinion. Come on folks...Malinois opened up a good thread to expand on...lets hear some other opinions.

Here's what I have seen in the past. Elas Lea an old master class shooter from years ago who shot a 7BR loaded with 175 SMKs once told me that acording to his records, had dumped 268 Rams and didn't splash a single one.

I shoot a 270 Win. in Hunter class using the 135 SMK and have never splashed one. They reacted very quickly and down they go.

A pal of mine on a fixed income buys bulk 270 130 Remington Core-Lokts and ringers for him are common even though both our loads chronograph very closely.

Using a borrowed 700 Varmint Special in 7-08 and 162 Nos. Solid Bases (black & red box) the owner assured me that he had never lost a ram with his pet load. I hit the ram dead center and I swear it winked at me and didn't go down.He was spotting for me and just shook his head.Damn !!!!, that was fun.

Gonna have to stick with those .277 SMKs they are just plain tough.I have set of Practice chickens and the 135SMKs crater the steel whereas the 130 Core-Lockts barely knock the paint off. Go figger.

[lone ringer]

22284, the ballistic coefficient between the MK and the hunting bullets is what is making the difference, even though they are starting at the same velocity by the time they reach the rams the MK's have the advantage as far as retained velocity is concerned, so they are hitting the rams harder than the hunting bullets.

[22284]

lone ringer,That may be the case but I have ny doubts.Some day when the range is clear I will have to set my screens in front of the rams and see what the actual difference is.

.......Ran a quick check to see how much difference there is between the two and came up with these numbers.

Reminton .277 130 Core-Lockt.
SD .242
BC .433


Sierrra .277 135 SMK
SD .251
BC .488

Not much differance IMHO in that ballisticallly speaking 500 meters is really not that far and the higher B.C. doesn't really come into play except at the longer ranges.

Will call a pard that has QUICK LOAD and see what the program sez.

Ain't this fun......and winter ain't even here

Peace my brother.

[lone ringer]

22284, in the mean time load both with the same powder charge and see how much elevation you need to hit the ram gongs in the middle. I bet you need more elevation for the core lock bullets than you need for the MK's, also remember that one is five grains heavier which you may not think can make a difference but it does. I shoot 6.5mm 139 and 144gr. Lapua bullets and the 144's hit the targets a lot harder even though they are only 5 grains heavier, by the way both shoot same point of impact at ram distance.

[lone ringer]

lone ringer,That may be the case but I have ny doubts.Some day when the range is clear I will have to set my screens in front of the rams and see what the actual difference is.

.......Ran a quick check to see how much difference there is between the two and came up with these numbers.

Reminton .277 130 Core-Lockt.
SD .242
BC .433


Sierrra .277 135 SMK
SD .251
BC .488

Not much differance IMHO in that ballisticallly speaking 500 meters is really not that far and the higher B.C. doesn't really come into play except at the longer ranges.

Will call a pard that has QUICK LOAD and see what the program sez.

Ain't this fun......and winter ain't even here

Peace my brother.

The Remington bullet may not have as good a BC as they claim. I ran the Sierra 130 SPT and its BC is .370 for speeds above 2700
Bullet Name Diameter inches Weight grains Sectional Density Ballistic Coefficients
.277 dia. 130 gr. SPT .277 130 .242 .370 @ 2700 fps and above
.379 between 2700 and 2200 fps
.383 @ 2200 fps and below

and their 130 SBT
Bullet Name Diameter inches Weight grains Sectional Density Ballistic Coefficients
.277 dia. 130 gr. SBT .277 130 .242 .436 @ 2800 fps and above
.418 between 2800 and 2200 fps
.402 between 2200 and 1800 fps
.387 @ 1800 fps and below

Same SC .242 as the Rem and neither has as good BC as the Core Lockt's, I would think Sierras had a better BC than Rem.

What I don't understand is why the BC of the SPT bullets is higher at lower velocities than at higher velocities. The BC on the SBT bullets is lower at slower velocities and that is what I thought it should be. Maybe somebody can explain that to me.

[malinois]

Might have something to do with the angle of incidence that they fly at for a given velocity....that would be my guess.

[RBriscoe]

Just a couple of observations about bullet impact on rams.

There are two kinds of silhouette shooters...those who have rung rams and those who will ring rams.

If you see a big, ugly splotch instead of a smaller, tight bullet mark, the bullet "blew up" and did not transfer much of its energy. This can happen for any number of reasons, not all of them the fault of the bullet. If most of them do this, reducing velocity would be the first thing to try.

Quite a few people believe that Sierra 6.5mm 142 gr MKs are not at all happy when they get to the ram with a muzzle velocity much over 2,750 fps. More than a few people have had good results with them when fired below 2,700 fps. If you are shooting them at 2,600 - 2,650 fps you will run into the occasional match or range where the rams will simply shrug them off like so many gnat bights.

The 6.5mm 139 gr Scenars seem to tolerate a muzzle velocity over 2,800 fps, but will still lose their share of rams when the conditions are "right".

Bob Cauteruccio swages 7mm jackets down to 6.5mm with the result that the jacket is thicker. He uses a conventional lead core, similar in composition to other match bullets (pure lead). His 6.5mm 141 gr VLDs carry a good bit of energy downrange and seem to stand up to impact with the ram as well as most any other bullet of similar caliber and weight. I have left rams with them on occasion. All things considered, I think they are as good a 6.5mm "ram bullet" as there is out there, save, perhaps, for one made in Australia specifically for the purpose. I have never had any of those to shoot, however. Perhaps someone who goes to the world championship could bring a few of those home to test.

Most conventional hunting bullets have a harder lead alloy (a few percent antimony usually) than the typical match bullets and may have a thicker, typically tapered, jacket which will frequently stand up to the impact with the ram better. Sierra used to recommend the 7mm 160 gr GK Bob used over the 7mm 168 gr MK, but nobody listened to them. Their 7mm 175 gr GK is a fine bullet that gets the job done most of the time, but I have seen them leave rams as well.

I used to shoot a 6.5mm 130gr Norma VLD at velocities/loads that are unpublishable. It had a rather thick jacket and a core that appeared to be quite conventional for a match bullet. They were as close to anything I have seen that "punished" a ram.

The 6.5mm 144 gr Lapua bullets were once fairly tough bullets, but do not seem to be the same in more recent years. You also lose quite a lot of velocity in a 6.5-08 case compared to the 140gr class of bullets.

If you shoot at a range which consistently has the wind from behind the rams or where the rams may be a bit thicker/heavier than spec or their feet a bit big you can expect most of the calibers smaller than 7mm to experience a greater degree of "ram failure" than the 7s. I can recall one match which was decided by who got the fat rams on the final day. The 6.5s had no chance at all.

It seems that a growing number of 7mm shooters are using lower velocities with the heavy ram bullets to reduce recoil and are still getting favorable results...but, 6.5s are so much fun to shoot.

If anyone is interested in experimenting, I believe that it would be possible to document the energy actually transferred to the ram by using a sled type of affair, preferably close to the weight of a ram (nominally 54 pounds) and measuring how far it is moved by the impact of various bullets at different velocities. This would not be a ballistic pendulum which captures the bullet, but a steel plate so that the bullet would be subjected to the same forces as when it strikes the ram.

There was an article in the American Rifleman some years ago which concluded that bullet construction was not a factor in ram performance. I doubt that there are a great many people who would agree with that conclusion today.

Rick

[malinois]

Interesting....I know that a few years ago I was fire forming brass in my 260 and I loaded the 140 grain remington corelok stuff at a very low speed...it was amazing just how hard the rams went down...so low speed with a heavy bullet will get it done...kinda like a 300 wisper..if I remenber I think the speed was somewhere around 2400 fps. however I would tend to think that the softer core would stay together longer instead of a harder more britle core....thoughts ?

[22284]

Would be very interesting to place a high speed camera at the rams just to see what happens upon impact. My humble take is that given equal weights and velocity the projectile with the stoutest constuction will haul the mail over a weaker one every time.

Given my druthers I'd rather be whacked over the head with a huge glob of JELLO rather than a cinder block of equal weight.

Friend and shooting pard has a masters degree in physics and we tend to agree on the JELLO vs. cinder block theory.

If only the rams could speak....................

[Bob Mc Alice]

I think this pretty much demonstrates what happens on all the targets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WttHqcKcKUA

[Bob Mc Alice]

Hey Rick.....at St. Louis last week "team Colorado" lost four rams to solid hits.Two from a 7BR 175 Game King.....one hit with a .260 140MK...and a 7-08 168 MK. (mine). Interestingly enough in relay one Tom B. hit ram #4 in bay one solid center neck.... it stood. I followed up on relay two and hit the same #4 ram center chest and it again failed to fall. Two solid hits back to back and the SOB stood.The target was not touched by setter. Eric lost one to his .260 with 140 MK, and Lee O. did not lose any (and he hit a whole bunch of them) with his trademark "redline pressure" 6.5 x 55 with 142 Lapuas. Not sure if you heard me complain to Pat O. about stubborn Missouri rams. This has happened several times to us here in the past. Like JB quoted Jack Hill saying......"too many variables".

[malinois]

Wow very dramatic footage of the bullet on impact...I had to watch it a few times...those bullets sure turn into a pile of junk...and you are correct bob there are too many variables ... but I would check the animals next time that you have one grin at you like that again if I recall correctly one year at the nationals for smallbore at think Ridgeway no less during a shoot off somebody c-clamped masseys animal down for giggles and troy stepped up with a sling shot and shot his down or was it the other way around in anycase the shoot off winners animal had a string tied to it....what a bunch we are..

[RBriscoe]

Bob,

There were a few rams that "stood tall" at St. Louis. Pat O lost 2 (or was it 3?) with 175 gr GKs. One left a big splotch like it "blew up", but that is not always the bullet's fault. If there is a bit of a crater on the animal and that is where the impact takes place the bullet can be destroyed through no fault of its own. I did not see the rams close up, but there was some discussion about the black powder cartridge people needing to turn the rams around for a while. Those 500 gr bullets really pound the target and can bow them enough to make for sticky rams. My observation was that the wind was behind the animals which is always a problem. "It is an outdoor sport." I lost a pair of rams with some 141 Cauteruccios, which I consider to be good bullets. Those hits were pretty well centered which is, of course, the worst place to hit them. It would have helped if I had hit more animals instead of shooting the rail so much.

It was a nice match and I sure enjoyed the cooler weather. It was 102º when I got home.

Tony,

Would you care to mention what sort of velocity range you are using for the 144 gr Lapuas? I have a few of them left somewhere or other and probably ought to load them.

Cheers,

Rick

[lone ringer]

Rick, use the 144's with as much H4350 SC as your cases will stand but being on the safe side which would be around 41gr give or take one grain, depending on the brand of your brass and how tight your barrel and chamber is.

The variables that people talk about are not in the bullets, pistol shooters do not have much trouble ringing rams like we do, at my local range LASC where they have hosted several NRA Handgun silhouette Nationals, they have paid special attention to ram's stands, they are set solid on the ground with cement, they they have somewhat of an overhang built in and you can't push the rams forward on the stands, all that to minimize ringing them. The only difference is the velocity at which the targets are hit but really a lot of them use the same calibers we use in rifle silhouette but they are allowed to use muzzle brakes on their handguns to deal with the recoil.

The variables are heavier than normal targets, wide rails with no pads or stops on them so that target setters do not push them forward, not turning targets so they face both ways will eventually lead to them getting bent out of shape and then the bullets do not hit them straight specially at places were targets are shared with black powder cartridge shooters. Lose stands are another reason we ring targets, other than that if we paid as much attention as handgun shooters do as far as how stands and targets are built and taken care off we would not have as many ringed targets as we do now. The only solution is to use the heaviest bullet with the best construction offered and to drive them as fast as is safely to do it. I am not talking about calibers like the 308 or 30-06 which some shooters still favor. I am talking about the ones that want to do it with 6mm, 6.5mm and even some of the 7mm cartridges used now a days.

Now just a bit of my history for those that have not been in the sport for as long as some of us have.

I have been shooting silhouettes since 1978 and even then we had trouble with rams shooting 308's with 168's so most people I knew used either 190's or 200's for rams, my load with 4064 was not even in the Sierra loading book because I was using a special cases WCC58 and WCC60 that allowed me to put more powder than recommended. I got my best score ever with a 308 36X40 in the early 80's hitting and knocking all 10 rams at a range in Palmdale, CA named Desert Marksmen where we used to ring a lot of targets because the bases of the stand's bases were made of railroad tie plates which were left the original size so it was very easy for our target setters to push them forward.

After 1983 because of a broken cheek bone on the right side of my face I was forced to try different calibers namely the 7mm-08 and then the 7MM IHMSA, I rang a lot of rams with both calibers until I started using full charges of IMR 4350 with the heaviest bullets I could find. If it had not been for my busted face I would have stayed with the 308 and my heavy ram loads for a lot longer time.

Wise shooters like Earl Hines from Tucson, AZ and others were experimenting with mouse guns like the 7mm BR that required Earl to make his cases our of the mentioned WCC58 cases, he used to offer people lots of money for them if he knew they had some. Other shooters like Dave Imas used the 7mm TCU with success.

Then we started using 6mm and 243 when the bullet makers started making VLD bullets, scores went up specially in Hunting rifle. In in my case I only participated in Hunting rifle class matches at the CA and AZ state championships and Nationals. Doing it with a 308 or 7-08 was not conductive to getting good scores because of recoil but after changing to 6mm's most shooter's score including me went up but we did ring our share of targets.

In 1997 Remington came out with the 260 Remington which was the best compromise of shooting it with light bullets 120 gr at the first three distances and 144gr. Lapuas at rams. I won the US NRA Hunting Rifle Class Nationals that year and twice in Canada.

Dan Theodore, came up with a 6.5 TKS which uses a 6mm BR Lapua case with its neck blown forward. He and other shooters like Tim Kurreck used it for years with success but we could not use it in Hunting class rifles until recently when they eliminated the use of only factory cartridges on Hunting rifle class competition.

Agustin Sanchez has shot 3 39X40 twice with 260's in Ridgway, PA and one time in Phoenix, AZ with a cartridge similar to the 6.5 TKS we call 6.5 Viking.

I venture to say that the 260 Rem and now the 6.5X47 Lapua will be the calibers of choice for most of the top shooters.

[RBriscoe]

Tony,

Thanks. That is in the range of what I am shooting with the 141s.

I tried a 6.5 Viking for part of a season. It is an interesting little cartridge, but I never found the right combination for my home range (it is not the easiest range in the world). I suspect that it would be "just the ticket" at many ranges. Ditto the 6.5 X. The primer pockets loosened up on ram loads with 22-250 cases. So far, the 6.5x47L case seems to tolerate reasonable loads quite well, though there is not a huge difference in the powder charges between it and my 6.5-08s.

Rick