.357 Load

[No1_49er]

I'm going to start a journey down the rabbit-hole of Pistol Cartridge Rifle Silhouette shooting. I intend using a 357 Magnum Marlin M94, 24" octagon barrel, Lyman 17a front globe/Williams TK rear aperture sight set.
I have a reasonable supply of Hornady 125gn and 158gn XTP projectiles.

Until now, I have been shooting rimfire with a Marlin M39 (1953, Ballard) which fires a pretty much standard 40gn @ circa 1,100fps, a load which successfully knocks targets off their feet.

After many searches through this forum, it seems to me that suggested loads for the 357 are much more robust than the diminutive 22LR.
QuickLOAD suggests to me that some of these suggested loads are in the region of 1,800fps which is vastly more, in energy terms, than the 22LR. Why, and is there a real need to be, so "robust"?
My thinking is that a 125gn bullet starting at about 1,200fps would be more than enough, without factoring the necessary sight adjustment for the "lazy" trajectory. Or am I missing something? Pun not intended.

Another point that causes me some angst is the relatively tiny powder charge (volumetric) in the 357 case. Is the powder charge position sensitive?
In a parallel life, I shoot conventional bolt-action 3P target rifle, where the convention seems to be that a powder charge that is close to 100% case capacity is desirable. I appreciate that a lot of pistol cartridge loads are "small" (even the 22LR) but a powder that requires a larger charge seems more desirable, to me.


What advise can the forum members offer?

Many thanks,
49er

edit - spelling correction

[edgehit]

49er,
I’ll take a shot at answering your questions.

“… is there a real need to be, so "robust"? No. You need at least a 22 mag to reliably knock down the ram. The 158g bullet loads can handicap you with unnecessary recoil.

“My thinking is that a 125gn bullet starting at about 1,200fps would be more than enough, without factoring the necessary sight adjustment for the "lazy" trajectory. Or am I missing something?” - I agree with your thinking. The trajectory isn’t an issue when the targets are a known distance.

“Another point that causes me some angst is the relatively tiny powder charge (volumetric) in the 357 case. Is the powder charge position sensitive? “ You’re smart to have angst over using these small charges. Position sensitivity is real and there is the safety concern of double charged powder or none at all which is far worse if you don’t notice it and follow up with a second shot.

There are known powders that are position insensitive. Titegroup is most popular and Hodgdon advertises as insensitive to position. I have found this to be true. Trailboss would be perfect for this application if you could find it. It’s safest to use because you can’t get enough powder in the case to hurt you. TB accuracy is excellent. Bullseye, and several other fast to medium/fast burn rate powders like W231, HP38, and N320 also work well.

They can all deliver accurate 125’s at 1200 fps. I and several others confirm great accuracy with 125 XTP using 5.5g Titegroup. I’m talking ragged hole at 50 yards. If your rifle won’t shoot this load it’s probably the rifle. I’m now using N320 because it’s a bit cleaner and measures better than Titegroup. I would use trailboss if I could find it.

Hope this helps you decide. Be safe and enjoy the journey.

[No1_49er]

Thanks for that advice, Joe

49er,
I’ll take a shot at answering your questions.

“… is there a real need to be, so "robust"? No. You need at least a 22 mag to reliably knock down the ram. The 158g bullet loads can handicap you with unnecessary recoil.
A 158gn bullet seems to be redundant for this application, given that a 22Mag can deal to the Rams.

“My thinking is that a 125gn bullet starting at about 1,200fps would be more than enough, without factoring the necessary sight adjustment for the "lazy" trajectory. Or am I missing something?” - I agree with your thinking. The trajectory isn’t an issue when the targets are a known distance.

“Another point that causes me some angst is the relatively tiny powder charge (volumetric) in the 357 case. Is the powder charge position sensitive? “ You’re smart to have angst over using these small charges. Position sensitivity is real and there is the safety concern of double charged powder or none at all which is far worse if you don’t notice it and follow up with a second shot.

There are known powders that are position insensitive. Titegroup is most popular and Hodgdon advertises as insensitive to position. I have found this to be true. Trailboss would be perfect for this application if you could find it. It’s safest to use because you can’t get enough powder in the case to hurt you. TB accuracy is excellent. Bullseye, and several other fast to medium/fast burn rate powders like W231, HP38, and N320 also work well.
Maybe I'm in luck - I had squirreled away several pounds of TrailBoss. About 6 grains for the 125gn bullet?

They can all deliver accurate 125’s at 1200 fps. I and several others confirm great accuracy with 125 XTP using 5.5g Titegroup. I’m talking ragged hole at 50 yards. If your rifle won’t shoot this load it’s probably the rifle. I’m now using N320 because it’s a bit cleaner and measures better than Titegroup. I would use trailboss if I could find it.

Hope this helps you decide. Be safe and enjoy the journey.

Thanks, again.
49er

[375Short]

I second Titegroup and TrailBoss. They are good so often that it’s certainly a good place to start and probably be one and done. Congratulations on a superb cartridge choice for versatility in Leveraction. Mild is all you need for PC and it’s plenty of cartridge for CLA (high power - leveraction). In which case it doesn’t have a lot of extra case capacity but enough. In that application two different approaches seem to work at the ram distance. Factory or equivalent 158’s for rams or 200’ish going 1080-1180. The heavy option has milder recoil but both are about as mild as possible and still get the job done.

[kendog]

Thanks to all. For the time being, that is until I run out of a bunch of it, I've settled on 14.2 of 2400 and 158 JSP's. A little strong but it burns clean, very accurate, knocks over anything I hit, and relatively mild recoil out of a Japchester 1873 "Deluxe Sporting" 24" rifle with shotgun butt.
After that I have quite a bit of Win 244 that needs burning.

[edgehit]

Ohhhh…. The 1873 deluxe sporting is so cool. I’d buy one but I’m a 25 WCF fan for PC.

[chickenhater]

49er said, "My thinking is that a 125gn bullet starting at about 1,200fps would be more than enough, without factoring the necessary sight adjustment for the "lazy" trajectory. Or am I missing something? Pun not intended."

The one thing missing would be accuracy. One of my earlier 357 loads used trailboss and pushed the 140gr xtp around 900 fps, outta the 20" octagon barrel of my 1894. It shot decent groups at 50yds, but they were rather fat and some keyholed at 100m, so we'll call it minute of ram++. Switching to titegroup and pushing the 140s at 1450fps really tightened things up at 100m. Since the bullets spin rate is directly tied to its velocity, there is a point of necessity where stabilizing the bullet is concerned. Then there is the barrel itself that adds to the issue, harmonics are a fickle science and i've no formula to determine what mv will provide agreeable harmonics, only trial and error. So one rifle might shoot exceptionally well at 1200fps, but the next needs to be driven a little harder, or lighter, to hit the sweet spot.
I would start testing with the minimum charge, for your powder of choice and work my way up, till i found the performance zone for that combo. So more or less the gun/ammo will dictate what mv you run. As long as its not going to damage the targets, thats youre load whether its 1100fps or 1400fps... ect

[Walter Johnson]

I shoot 125gr .357 for pistol cartridge. Either XTPs or sierra.

My go to load is 5.8 grains of unique and I do a Lee factory crimp at 3/4 turn.

Unique has been hard to find, so I'm planning to switch to tite group when it runs out, starting with a 6 grain load.

[Rotnguns]

I've just started out in silhouette, and my PC load has been 14.1 grains of IMR 4227 with a 125 grain Sierra FP bullet. Muzzle velocity seems to vary considerably but generally around 1450 - 1500; measured indoors which can interfere with the Garmin chrono. Very mild recoil in my Marlin 1894 with 24 inch octagon barrel, not hard on the targets. I loaded some rounds up with 15 grains of the same powder to try and reduce variability. In a fun match we held with pistols, I used a 7.5 inch S&W .41 mag, with 8 grains Unique and 210 grain Hornady XTP bullets, and they absolutely mashed the chickens at 40 yards. Blew two of them clean over the berm. Rams fell like hit with a brick. I'll be reducing the load for the next pistol match.

[No1_49er]

Following on from my query (Feb 20th), I'd like to give some feedback with my findings, and another question.

All of my testing was at 50 mtr with a Leupold 24x scope fitted, over a front benchrest and rear bag - pretty stable. Bullet was 125gn Hornady XTP.

Started out by trialing Lil'Gun with 0.2gn increments from 14.0 - 15.8gn. Best group was 20mm, centre to centre, but the average velocity was "rather fast" at 1,840fps.
Maybe I could try a series with lighter charges, but how low could I reasonably go?

Next test was with TrailBoss, again with 0.2gn increments from 4.4 - 6.0gn. Although the velocity was more to my liking at average 985fps, the best group was a little over 39mm (C2C) - not so good.

Next: Titegroup, 4.8 - 6.6gn, again in 0.2gn increments. Best group was 17mm (C2C) with average velocity 1,204fps. That is more to my liking.

Now to load a batch and calibrate the iron sights.

Except for the TrailBoss, these small powder charges got me to thinking "what about using 38Spl" cases?
It seems reasonable to assume that the results will be different, given the smaller case capacity, but is that a route (rabbit-hole) that anyone has gone down?
Also; does anybody use the 357Mag with heavier bullets for the LAS match? My initial thoughts were to use a 30-30, but if the "little" gun is adequate, I may not.

49er

[edgehit]

I’m just now developing my CLA load and I’m following in Wayne and Joe Rod’s footsteps. I’ve shot both of their rifles and was immediately sold on the low recoil and results at the ram line.

Joe Rod’s load was a 158 XTP going subsonic. It did take Whittington center rams. I dabbled with it and found it shot sub 4” at the ram line in fair weather (more about wind in a moment).

Wayne is sailing in uncharted territory. He’ll chime in here soon and share his experiences. He’s dabbled with 38 spl cases and heavy for caliber subsonic cast lead bullets with great success that’s exemplified by being CLA HOA at last summer’s Western at Whittington.

Heavy and subsonic, like a 300 Black Out, makes sense for several reasons:
1: JBM Trajectory computations demonstrate 1/2 the wind drift of a 30-30 in any cross wind at the ram line. Don’t believe me? Run the simulation yourself. Use Sierra’s BC for their 205 RN - 0.27 at subsonic V.
2: Low recoil
3: No muzzle blast

You need tight chronograph numbers to maintain reasonable accuracy at the ram line. Do what Lapua does for their long range ammo and keep the V below 1105 fps and ES 30.

Matt’s bullets sells a 195 RN and a 205 RN GC.
The Cast Bullet Shot sells the same and Toni offers a selection for alloy and diameter.

Ideally, you’d roll your own bullets and coat them in HiTech, then size with a gas check.

I’m on this journey and am trying a NOE mould clone of RCBS’ 180-SIL that casts at 197gr, .360”. Initial groups are a bit wide at 50 yds but I discovered my Lee 0.358” sizer actually undersizes at 0.3574”. That’s no bueno.

There are moulds that drop up to 230g available from NOE, Accurate, and Arsenal Moulds.

I ordered a soft allow 205 GC sized 359” from Toni and loaded with 3N38. It shot great, 1-hole, until the throat leaded up. I’ve now read Glenn Frexell’s book and have surmised my powder has too much Pressure for a soft lead alloy.

My nexts tests will be Lyman #2 allow (harder, tougher) sized 358-359” with 3N38. Followed by same bullet pushed by N110, Little Gun, or 2400.

Some may ask, “why Vihtavuori powders?” They are single base and have a good reputation for being clean burning.

I did try a max load of N320 and it showed great promise with tight ES and SD. The high pressure concerns me and there’s also the greater risk of a double powder drop.

[375Short]

I got the idea from Dennis Ostler.

The good wind drift behavior is an advantage as is the mild recoil. It’s also helpful that with two shooters going through ammo it can be produced on a Dillion Square Deal with convenience. To be honest, I had not shot my loads on paper at Ram distance. They have always seemed to land on call. Fairly recently I did get around to paper testing at 200. 4” is an exception but 5” is more the norm. Looking at groups that large is terrifying, I should have carried on in ignorance.

[375Short]

For what it’s worth the 2025 Western National has concluded and the .357 appears to be growing in popularity. A father and Son duo sure made a fine showing of the cartridge’s potential during the CLA match. The old SubJunior record score was beaten by the young lad with a slow, low recoil, heavy bullet .357 load. They both turned in terrific scores.