Maybe maybe not

[375Short]

While everyone has the possibility of a weight change of SB rifle on the mind. Maybe it’s a good time to give some thought to a simpler One and Done rifle rule for the future. That concept was mentioned several times in the 9 pound Smallbore thread. The following is not an official rule change or proposal, it’s simply a generic sample for discussion. Specifications mentioned are random standards selected as a starting point.

3.1 Silhouette Rifle

specifications:

(a) Maximum weight 9 pounds, 4 ounces including sights. This is the all inclusive maximum weight allowed as used during the competition. High Power Rifle - must be chambered for a centerfire rifle cartridge. Small Bore - must be chambered for a .22 Long Rifle rimfire cartridge. No bullet may cause significant damage to the impact surface of a Silhouette as determined by Match Director, Jury or 3 - 5 competitors not of the same classification.
(b) Sights - Any. Scopes may not be more than 2 inches above the top centerline of the rifle measured from the top of the action to the bottom of the scope tube.
(C) Triggers - safe, not subject to accidental discharge. Rifle must have a functional safety.
(d) Stock - Must be traditionally styled. The forend width shall not exceed 2.25 inches. The stock shall not be more than 2.25” deep measured from the centerline of the bore. Shall have a forearm extended at least 8 inches forward of the frontline of the receiver. Trigger guard must be present and may not vary from conventional configuration. It shall be no deeper than 1 5/16 inches below the bottom line of the forend and no wider than 1 inch. The comb shall not extend above the centerline of the bore. The Buttplate or recoil pad may not extend below the lower line of the stock.
(e) Magazines do not have to conform to stock measurements but those that extend below the stock line may not be used as support.
(F) Barrel - may be no less than 20 inches and may not include a muzzle break or any other muffle device, fixed or removable. Exception: thread protector, closely matching the barrel profile and serving no other purpose.

Modern Silhouette Rifle (MSR) - A semiautomatic rifle based on the AR-15 or AR-10 platform. 3.1a,b,c,d and e do not apply. Trigger must have a pull weight of not less than 2 pounds, 8 ounces and a functional safety. A magazine sized to hold no more than 20 rounds or less must be used. The rifle must load from the magazine during competition and may be loaded with no more than 5 rounds. (See 9.3, Case Deflector)

[c4p6t7r188]

Good luck...as I see it, giving people a voice/vote will just be chaos and nobody will agree unless certain people do it. Sometimes people just need to be told what to do in order to possibly better things.

"“If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.”" - Henry Ford

[atomicbrh]

[quote=c4p6t7r188 post_id=112416 time=1739389492 user_id=32992]
Good luck...as I see it, giving people a voice/vote will just be chaos and nobody will agree unless certain people do it. Sometimes people just need to be told what to do in order to possibly better things.

"“If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.”" - Henry Ford
[/quote]

Allow me to summarize your reply:
"Silhouette needs a dictator."
My thoughts:
That dictator must have a thorough knowledge of match procedures and all the different divisions of equipment, the ability to formulate a rule book, the ability to keep records of scores/classifications in a timely manner, contract with ranges/clubs for match dates, solicit manufacturers for donations/prizes, work a website/social media, communicate with people who argue about inconsequential things and basically just have common sense, honesty and integrity.
No committees or voting on anything is necessary because metallic silhouette is really a simple sport if you have a good dictator.
Just because a competitor has won multiple national championships does not mean they have the skill set to be the dictator or influence policy.
The dictator should be able to earn a decent income from this sanctioning body he/she owns just from annual competitor licence fees and add employees every few years as it grows.
The dictator, sanctioning body business model has worked for many different sports for decades.

[frankmako]

Drop the hunter class rifle and have the standard class rifle. Problem over with one class. No need in having a second class of rifle which is getting the same as the standard rifle.

[c4p6t7r188]

Good luck...as I see it, giving people a voice/vote will just be chaos and nobody will agree unless certain people do it. Sometimes people just need to be told what to do in order to possibly better things.

"“If I had asked my customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse.”" - Henry Ford

Allow me to summarize your reply:
"Silhouette needs a dictator."
My thoughts:
That dictator must have a thorough knowledge of match procedures and all the different divisions of equipment, the ability to formulate a rule book, the ability to keep records of scores/classifications in a timely manner, contract with ranges/clubs for match dates, solicit manufacturers for donations/prizes, work a website/social media, communicate with people who argue about inconsequential things and basically just have common sense, honesty and integrity.
No committees or voting on anything is necessary because metallic silhouette is really a simple sport if you have a good dictator.
Just because a competitor has won multiple national championships does not mean they have the skill set to be the dictator or influence policy.
The dictator should be able to earn a decent income from this sanctioning body he/she owns just from annual competitor licence fees and add employees every few years as it grows.
The dictator, sanctioning body business model has worked for many different sports for decades.

[Hotrodrockets]

Maybe. Yes.

Really like this idea.
Streamlines a lot of things.

Any time the rules are simplified it makes the sport more accessble.

The best part is no part.

[cslcAl]

You all are missing on important aspect. If you go to one gun and they WILL all be custom guns; how do you attract new shooters. The Hunter rifle class used to be a great entry point for our sport till it turned into an equipment race. We need to grow the sport not continue to turn it into country club golf.

Al Foust

[HR41mag]

If I may expand upon your analogy Al, much like golf, the equipment almost never decides who win the match. I agree that there should be two classes. The Hunter class is becoming very close to the Standard class which is unfortunate. I can see where the weight limit is a problem when trying to field a Hunter class rifle. I had this problem when looking for a scope on my rifle and it limited what choices I had. It was almost a requirement to purchase a lightweight stock and to accommodate the size of modern scope on my rig. There might be some benefit in making the Hunter class use a wholly production rifle and get back to basics. This will leave the Standard class for customizing and the tinkering with these guns which we all love to do. Hopefully this would allow new shooters to enter the sport with equipment they currently have.

Just a thought?
Will Cook

[atomicbrh]

You are all missing the real solution and I did not come up with this.
A couple of multiple time national champions said this when just sitting around shooting the breeze.
The class to alter is the standard rifle class.
Take a off the shelf, unaltered 1800, 1900, or 2000 series Anschutz Small bore position rifle with factory weights in position.
Put it on the scales with a Weaver T series scope(or a modern 30 mm scope) with the sunshade and tall bkl rings.
Add a few ounces for wood variations and that is your standard rifle class.
Put a rule on how high the comb can be positioned.
Put a actual measurement rule on forend blocks so you don't have somebody stack five blocks on top of each other.
One factory forend block should be all that is allowed.
This allows a person to buy off the shelf equipment and shoot.
Of course Walter, Feinwerkbau and others would fit in the same category.
It allows people of all sizes, shapes and heights to have a rifle that fits them in just a couple of minutes.
University competitors who graduated will be able to put a scope on their rifles and keep competing.
The Hunter rifle as we know it can still be shot in the standard class.
Smallbore Hunter and Center fire Hunter needs the maximum weight increased to accommodate tall shooters that need longer stocks and the newer 30 m mm scopes. Other Hunter rules should stay the same because people have put a lot of money in their Hunter rifles.
There will be a time when all those old 1 inch scopes will be worn out and there is no body to repair them.
(Note: The above reply is nothing I have come up with on my own. It is a summary of conversations I have had with people more knowledge than me over many years.)

[atomicbrh]

Deleted.

[cslcAl]

Shooters;
I am always looking to why we don’t attract new shooters. I’ve come to the conclusion that the rifle configurations we shoot now are outdated. Our gun platform does not conform to what younger folks are seeing in print or on tv.
Now; I’m totally against AR type rifles for silhouette except the Military class we have now; BUT a bolt action in a chassis style stock just might be the ticket.

Leave HP Hunter as is. Add the 1/2 pound to SB Hunter.

Add some weight to Std rifle in HP and SB to accommodate the chassis stock. This would even benefit the stock/barrel configurations we use now.
That’s my 2 cents!

Al Foust

[Grantmac]

Just adopt PRS rules

[hermit5]

I really like the silhouette game,therefore I will go with the flow how ever it evolves.
I can understand the validity of a weight change to accommodate new scope possibilities.
I can understand the “ Tacti-Kool “concept to attract new shooters.
I like the idea of factory class as once was,and being able to shoot in both classes.This helps entry level and doesnt throw old
style guns and shooters under the bus for not having upgraded.
Any barrel or trigger change moves to std rifle,along with stocks that don’t fit Hunter description and are custom.
There is no doubt of the equipment race.Some have jumped in this game right at the top with equipment,ammo ( sponsors)
and unlimited budgets.Hooray for them.Top dogs are in a world of their own as far as the mental and physical aspects,and travel.Thats a lot of work in its self.It still comes down to the person pulling the trigger at what ever level they can attain or afford.
Everyone should look at this game from a new shooter perspective and encourage the lower Classifications if you want the sport to grow.Keep in mind the many local clubs and competitors that shoot with minimal equipment and knowledge/skill and are happy to do so for the love of the game.

[atomicbrh]

[quote=cslcAl post_id=112431 time=1739587833 user_id=43]
Shooters;
I am always looking to why we don’t attract new shooters. I’ve come to the conclusion that the rifle configurations we shoot now are outdated. Our gun platform does not conform to what younger folks are seeing in print or on tv.
Now; I’m totally against AR type rifles for silhouette except the Military class we have now; BUT a bolt action in a chassis style stock just might be the ticket.

Leave HP Hunter as is. Add the 1/2 pound to SB Hunter.

Add some weight to Std rifle in HP and SB to accommodate the chassis stock. This would even benefit the stock/barrel configurations we use now.
That’s my 2 cents!

Al Foust
[/quote]

Thinking like the common man/woman on the street to attract shooters:
Put up a $500 cash prize in a drawing for all competitors that shoot the complete match, score their card correctly and don't have any alibis.
Put up a $1000 cash prize in a drawing for all competitors that shoot the complete match, score their card correctly and don't have any alibis and I predict you will not have room to park them.
Put up a $2000 cash award drawing as above and people will come out of the woodwork.
Of course you will have to follow tax law, so competitors will need a 1099 on file which is not a big deal.

[375Short]

The input on this topic is great. Thus far it seems a One and Done description of a SB and HP Silhouette rifles has some support. To be expected there is some variation in what that would look like. Modernization was mentioned and sure seems appropriate. The bolt gun platform is late 1800’s, with the MSR inclusion we sprint forward in time to the late 1950’s. Through our sporting rifle history the public preference follows what the military issues.

For a second class of rifle I like the simplicity approach. For Smallbore, Open Sight Sporter is well defined and popular. It may be even more popular if a second option was added. Exact same rules and add a second optics class. Must be 1” tube or less, no more than 40mm, non adjustable objective, no target turrets.

For HP a class that reflects the simplicity concept. Without typing out a description, basically, the common scoped center fire hunting rifle.

The dictator concept mentioned currently has merit. It has merit because that’s what often fills the void absent leadership. We are currently a ship without a rudder under the present NRA. I have been participating about a decade with nothing but decline in this area. It’s currently worse than not helpful, it works against us by not meeting the most basic requirements, like issuing cards. That’s another topic worthy of discussion on another thread. I believe it’s the single most destructive force to our sport. Hindering new participation and deterring continued participation above all other things.