Last night I read the "claim rifle" thread and had to laugh.... speed cost money how fast do you want to go. Shooting competitively is no different.
Yet the underlying tone of that "claim rifle" thread (and many others) is some feel the need for an entry level class. I don't feel there should be a third class but the current set up is strange to me.
I find it strange the "Hunter" class rifles have little in common with a common 22 hunting rifle. I also find it strange that "Standard" rifle class allows such small improvements that master shooter scores are nearly the same for standard and hunter classes.

So I'm curious if you all could fill in some of the history for me and others.
First, has there ever been a true "Hunting Rifle" class for the typical 22 found in nearly every sportsman's safe?
Next, how did we end up with two classifications of rifles that are nearly identical?

Hi Orange
The hunter class at one time allowed only out of the box rifles with little
to no modifications. I often think it may have been better to have maintained just that stipulation, however, things change.
Slowly little by little the modifications were made to what we have now.
I have NRA rule books back to 1990 in which one can trace the evolution and development.
The silhouette or standard rules have not changed that much and the equipment is evidence of this.
Cheers
Andrew

Orangeblaster, at the very beginning a lot of the rifles we used were rifles that resembled the ones seen at most gun shops.

I started this game using a Rem 580 I bought at The Grants Boys for $35.00 in 1978 and Manuel Lastiri won the first SB Sil Nationals at Fort Bliss, TX using a Winchester 52 B Sporter. After that some shooters began to put together "silhouette" rifles using target barreled actions. I have a Win 52 C rifle that was put together by H&S Precision with an Atkinson SS barrel, a Spoden style H&S Fibertane Stock and a Kenyon Trigger.

I shot quite a few years with that fine rifle and when Anschutz began to make Silhouette rifles I changed over to them for their faster lock time. In 1985 we had the first LIGHT (7.5 lbs) rifle class championship but shortly thereafter people started putting together rifles that were a lighter version of the Standard rifles and that is when the Hunting rifle class was established.

The Hunting rifle class was shot with production type rifles whose only allowance was the change of barrels. For the most part we did not have any problems with SB and most competitive shooters used Anschutz sporter rifles and a few other brands like Rem, Win, etc and some time later the weight was increased to 8.5 lbs because not too many sporting rifles made the 7.5 lbs weight without removing wood from their stocks.

About 5 years ago the NRA Silhouette Committee changed the rules to allowed us the use of anything that we wanted as long as the rifles met certain criteria like having a trigger with a working safety that was two pounds or heavier, the barrel had to have a tapper and no more than 26" in length, the stock had to resemble a hunting stock and no thumb hole stock are allowed now.

I hope this answers your question.

Yes, orange blaster, you have the concept.

Plenty of money in racing = more torque, more rpm, more "horsepower" so to speak, best tires to hook up to the track, the lightest best handling chassis, and time to experiment with and buy all the variables available within the rules to find out what is the fastest.

Plenty of money in competitive shooting= best available rifle, scope, ammo, smallest group size, plenty of time to practice and cross-train, lessons from qualified instructors, nicest travelling accomodations and the time to experiment with and buy all the variables in equipment within the rules to find out what equipment fits your body type and style of shooting best.

Example: Went to a World of Outlaws Sprint car race many years ago in Memphis, TN. I was always a Steve Kinser fan. Memphis is Sammy Swindell(I do not know if I spelled his name correctly.) territory. Steve came to the race with an old car and an old 1 ton gas burner tow rig. I think to make sure Sammy won on his home turf. Sammy lapped the field twice if I remember. His tow rig was twice as big as anyone elses with all kinds of spare parts and cars. Sammy's engine sounded like it was turning 3,000 more RPM than any engine in the field. It was amazing.

Non-example: Alan Kulwicki winning his NASCAR Championship. He used only two sets of tires on race weekends when other teams were using ten or more sets. His cars were fabricated from scrap metal. If you ever go to the car museum at Talladega, look at all the cars there and then look at Kulwicki's car. The body of the car will look the same on the outside as all the others but all the small parts were fabricated out of angle iron and flat bar. Most race cars have nice aluminum pedals. Kulwicki fabricated his out of 1 inch angle iron. He tack welded expanded metal on top of the angle iron so his foot would not slip off. His budget was amazingly small. His talent and determination allowed him to win.

Sorry to drift from the subject but I liked the fact that you could see the humor in the racing comparison.(More money= more speed)

I have only been in Silhouette 7 years but it is amazing the people that I meet in Competitve Shooting that are or were involved in Motorsports. Neal Stepp and Mac Tilton for example are both involved in motorsports.

The Hunting Rifle Division has gone through many developmental stages. A search through this forum and any other internet search engine will help reveal the history of the Silhouette Hunting rifle. I have heard from more seasoned shooters that much controversy surrounded many of the changes in the Hunter rifle and many heated discussions occured during these times. Some of these things folks probably do not want to discuss again. Just search for the term "chin gun" and you will learn a lot. Lone Ringer just did an excellent job describing Hunter Rifle development in a very nice clinical way.

I stated to Jerry Tureau a few years ago that I wished my family had gotten started in Silhouette a lot sooner instead of wasting all those years racing. Jerry summed it up by saying "You started at about the right time, Bobby. Before you started the equipment you could afford was really not very good."

Competitors in any sport will always take the equipment to the limit of the rules. It is human nature to tinker with and buy equipment.

Bobby R. Huddleston

There may be plenty of money in competitive shooting but in my opinion rifle silhouette shooting is one of the shooting sports where money can

Lone Ringer,
And they like to look good doing it!! Bling....

Innocent

The motorsports connection is interesting, but not really surprising. Both sports burn fuel in a "heat engine" in order to produce "power" which does "work." The bullet is just a piston with no connecting rod to tie it to the engine. The basic appeal of the equipment in both sports is remarkably similar.
I spent 14 years roadracing motorcycles. I never got all that good but I was proud to be a competent club racer and I had a front row seat to see world-class athletes perform miracles. (John Kocinski was, briefly, my teammate in endurance racing. I was in my mid 30's then. He was 16.) I was thinking this weekend at the Texas HP Champs that it reminded me a lot of the racing scene...a small group of special people preparing to use noisy, dangerous, high-performance machinery at levels that street riders and deer hunters couldn't imagine.
Pushing the limits of the rules is not merely human nature, it's just good sense. It doesn't actually improve your results, you understand. It just shows that you're thinking.
Claiming rules were designed to deter cheating as well as to put a ceiling on expenses. Bobby, I may be wrong but I don't recall them working very well in motorsports. They sure didn't in AMA National racing. Just for starters, to say that bitterness results when the rule is exercised is a gross understatement.
The problem with the original hunter rifle class was writing a strong, clear rule. One the many squabbles about rule-pushing involved an argument about whether an expensive, limited-production rifle was "catalogued and available over the counter." The only way to make the original IDEA work is to say: "You may use the following, unmodified rifles and no others: Rem 700., Win Mod 70, Ruger 77. We don't care if you want to use Grandad's 788. We know it's even cheaper than the 700. We just can't chase the rule-benders anymore."
What we have now is the result of decades of evolution and suits me fine. It's fair and it's stable. It doesn't please everybody but neither will anything else.
"Expensive" is a relative term, the main determinant being what you can afford to spend. I know that I am blessed to be able to afford the finest silhouette equipment that money can buy. But let's keep some perspective: The best silhouette rifle on the face of the earth costs less than $3000! You can't take a dirt-track car to a weekend meet for $3000. Priced really nice racing bicycles lately? Bass boats and motors? Memberships in decent golf clubs? And the rifle lasts forever and holds its value! You can get 75-80% of your money back if you need to.
An entry-level rifle, brand new, with accuracy on a par with the race-gun can be had for well under $500. If that's too much, is there something wrong with shooting a used rifle? The guy who says he really wants to shoot silhouete but can't afford adequate equipment is kidding himself. I think I've done this rant before but it just irritates me that people can't be honest with themselves and say: "My ego is too tender to endure losing and I'm not dedicated enough to do the work necessary to improve."
The people who WANT to shoot silhouette WILL shoot silhouette. If they have to mow lawns for a couple of months to buy a CZ they'll do that, the same way I scraped up my last $900 to buy an RD Yamaha in 1974. I was going racing and nothing was going to stop me, least of all the fact that I didn't have a prayer of running near the front.
There is nobody in the sport more dedicated to helping young people than Bobby Huddleston. I don't think a claiming rule is the answer but if I can ever figure out what is, I'm going to run it by Bobby first.

Let's not forget the Chin Guns of the early 90's (picture attached) when your talking about the history of silhouette guns.
Those were the times when there was a real difference betwen the Standard and Hunter class. Now with over 30% of the shooters using one gun for both classes it's only a matter of time before there will be only one class and one gun.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t151 ... hinGun.jpg

It is unfortunate that there really isn't two classes anymore. I don't think the intent was to merge them, but in fact they have. When you can compete in standard class, with a hunter rifle, and be competitive, you have essentially merged the two classes.

Bottom line, no matter what the cost or configuration of the rifle it's still the shooter (person pulling the trigger).

If you give a $100 rifle to Cathy, Troy or Agustin they still will win. It's the total packge in shooting, just like racing, it's not one element.

Besides a little 'Bling' in the rifle makes it fun

To Me, The classes are not only about the guns used. Its 2 different Games/Matches, and you need different scores to make Classification in each. It's like Golf (what a waste of a good shooting range) you are tea (or is that TEE)ing off from a different place. I have shot Master in Hunter 4 times in my life, but never shot Master in Standard. Using the same gun and a standard gun. Maybe we should rename the classes, keep the rules the same.
Maybe upper class and Lower class, Regular class and Super class. Light and Heavy (could refer to trigger or gun). Then people would not be so uptight about the equipment.
Just my 0.02 worth.
Dam! people really do take this game seriously!!!

slowstdy,

Not to cloud the issue but I did a little test at Jacksonville this year and acted as the Tech dude, Chuck had the stickers printed up in three columes and 22 stickers per colume, I went through almost a sheet of stickers for the Hunter class which would be expected at 64 shooters and just over one colume for the Standard that is almost 1/3 of the total shooters. It would seem to me that the Standard class gun is on the down slide, but then again everyone who goes to the nationals says they are still popular. So in the big picture of things what does it all mean, heck if I know. Now go practice Winnsboro is just around the corner and Chick is gunn'in for you.

I appreciate AJJ's comparison to motorcycle racing (You were fortunate enough to have raced with Kocinski, do you remember the Winters bunch from Fort Smith,....Robert Winters won Daytona, Leroy was an on again off again ISDT compttitor, and Bart has had a very troubled on again off again carreer in road racing....What a time and what a bunch of guys.....

Equipment becomes a race in whatever the sport. I love my competition rifles, but they will not make me a world class competitor due to physical limitations......But I can pass along the love of the sport......The feeling of a come from behind win......The smell of Castrol....I mean Eley priming and the comadrie that comes from competing in a sport at the highest levels, even if you skill level doesen't put you in the top 10.

Shoot what you have, covet what you want and work to make the two meet in the middle.

Kitty.
AKA, sportbikes now all gone, riding a VTX 1800 and shooting an Anschutz because I can and I like to........

I agree to a point, that "it is what it is". It comes down to the shooter. But when you have shooters with Pharr stocks and custom triggers, and match barrels...that happen to have .00x" taper to qualify for hunter, it is tough to sell it as the entry level class for SB silhouette.

That being said, it is fun. It is recreational. But competitive you will not be, for the most part, with your gopher shooter in the closet.

Hunter rifle is manifestly an entry-level class in the sense that you don't have to build a custom target rifle, or spend a lot of money, in order to get in and start playing.
The playing field is perfectly level. The sport is all about learning a skill. The idea (which I do not attribute to any poster... yet) that a newcomer deserves an equal chance to WIN is just silly.
One more time: The guy who says "Gee, I'd like to shoot but I can't afford a competitive rifle..." doesn't really want to shoot very badly at all.

Silhouette is never going to be a mainstream sport. It's too hard! It's just about the easiest and cheapest shooting sport to enter but if you need the gratification of seeing a lot of targets fall over right away, you aren't going to like it.