Ok, I have read the rule book and it didn't really help much. I've heard many things about what kind of stock is legal for hunter class, but nothing solid. Many times I have heard people say to just shoot what you want until someone complains. I know what a "common" hunting style stock looks like, but where is the line between the legal and illegal? I am seeing a lot more "tactical rimfire" stocks around and it got me wondering if they would be legal. Someone once said that there is a mold that the rifle has to be able to fit into to be legal, but I have never seen such a thing. If this mold does exist, does anyone have a picture of it? Anyway, I need examples, numbers, facts, pictures, and whatever else would be helpful.

Our Club I take a strict positon on Hunter class. If it does not look like a out of the box sporter, use a Winchester M 70 or Remington 700 as example I class the rifle in Silhouette class. Silhouette class has specific rules on drop comb height etc. whle Hunter is open to match directors opinion. I have had my Silhouette rifles checked in the Jig but our club we don't have one. Far as I know no rule on the jig it's just a easy way for the match director to get consistent check on the Silhouette rifle class. Never had anybody put my Hunter gun in the jig

We let about anybody shoot anything just don't class questionable rifles as a Hunter. Think you will find thats the general pratice

Boats

Hi Ghost, I still remember you were the first person I ever saw wearing those toe shoes at Winnie in 09... There is indeed a template box a hunter gun has to fit into to qualify, Ridgway Nationals comes to mind. They are mainly concerned with comb height and stock drop. also no thumbholes, etc. Think the Pharr stock. That pushes the limits about as pharr as you can. The spirit of the rule is that it should be looking like a hunting rifle, if you want to go wild do it with the standard rifle.

boats wrote:Our Club I take a strict positon on Hunter class. If it does not look like a out of the box sporter, use a Winchester M 70 or Remington 700 as example I class the rifle in Silhouette class. Silhouette class has specific rules on drop comb height etc. whle Hunter is open to match directors opinion. .................Boats

So what are you saying here... Are you saying that if someone comes to shoot at your range with a Pharr stocked custom rifle (See picture of Hambone's rifle in his Avatar) that leaglly shoots in both classes at the Nationals and every other NRA sanctioned match in the country is not able to shoot in Hunter class at your matches?

I certainly hope your not saying that.

To me tactical may imply a very deep stock in the magazine area like a Steyr TRG22, and that is not legal for hunter or standard. Personally I do not like my pharr stock as mush as the factory 1712 Anschutz stock. Even my 54MSR variations feel more comfortable than the pharr to me. For my comfort anything that is bigger better an faster than the factory offers seems awkward. I also shoot a super adjustable Precise Anschutz stock for 10 meter air, and I find the adjustments on that rifle to be set in the neutral positions. So that is just my personal preference at 6 feet and 220 pounds. (I really would like to be 200 pounds, but with Oktoberfest around the bend that dream looks dim.)
I think the rules allow a ton of variance in the hunter. Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but at Ridgway 5-7 or so years ago, there was only 1 official rifle jig. It was really built for the heavy standard rifle, but it was used by default to also mechanically screen sporter rifles. Again this was really before the rage of the super custom sporter. I think they were really looking at the toe of the rifle, and the belly of the stock primarily. Personally I think the frankenguns are more of a fad or even a nice physiological boost than an actual advantage. And really there is nothing wrong with that.

Bob

All sorts of rifles show up at our matches and not a lot of time in a one man run operation to debate rifles. If it does not look like a Hunter I don't class it as a Hunter. Anschutz 1712's look like a hunting rifle. something like the Ruger Varmint 22's and the tactical style guns don't look like Hunters. Since the Hunter rules were opened up some years ago it's not as clear as it was and all sorts of rule pushers out there, and guys that want to argue about there rifles. I don't debate it with anybody. Fellow has a rifle that's passed nationals has a sticker on it and signs up as a Hunter fine by me. Let the competitors worry about it, they don't think it's classed properly, they can always request the Jury check with a trigger weight and measure the scope height. about as far as we can go since we don't take a scale to the range for the rifle weight. You can eyeball the barrel taper. Quick look on registration never seen the rifle before and doubtful I put them in Silhouette class which is the fair thing to do for the other Hunter class shooters.

My experience is most matches operate the same way as ours quick look only.

Boats

Boats,
Understand about the interesting things showing up to a match. Seems like the Tactical thing is what everyone wants their rifle to look like anymore. What I have been seeing a lot of is hunter rifles where they are have barrel de-resonators on the barrel, which is clearly not allowed in hunter class, and being allowed to shoot in Hunter and for score.

My comment was because the way you worded it sounded like you make a decision on what is and what is not hunter class based on it looking or being a 'box stock' rifle. As you are well aware there are many custom rifles and actions on the line and being shot anymore that fit the rules for Hunter and if allowed at the nationals and other sanctioned matches should be allowed at your matches as well.

Agree on the custom Hunters however when rules are pushed to the edge sometimes things go over. You can't assume they are correct. Friend of mine had to rasp his forend down at the Nationals one year when the Mcmillian 54 ms clone fiberglass stock would not go in the box. Gunsmith had bedded it a little too high or low in the stock I forget which.

Have seen more than one custom hunter fail the 2 lb trigger weight test. Generaly the other competitors watch this carefully and catch offending equipment. I give it about a 2 second look.

Boats

can't be thumb hole,must fit in the jig. the rule book will give you the info. for the jig,also called the "box"

The first year I took my new 54 magazine fed with the McMillan stock to the nationals in Ohama, I had to file the stock down. Damn near broke my heart to spend $1500 on a new rifle that was supose to be a legal heavy gun out of the box. It was too deep right in front of the trigger guard by less than 1/8". After much complaining to Anschutz, McMillan sent me a new stock sometime in Oct that same year. Another guy had one just like mine with a real nice paint job and wouldn't put a file to it. He left the shoot mad as a hornet.

The only bright spots were, I didn't shoot too bad and I got some real good pictures of all the 'ditch weed' that was growing wild around there.

Jerry I commend you for doing what ya did! Don't think I would of had the nerve too! Would have been mad as a hornet like the other guy. Good result though!!!

boats wrote:Our Club I take a strict positon on Hunter class. If it does not look like a out of the box sporter, use a Winchester M 70 or Remington 700 as example I class the rifle in Silhouette class. Silhouette class has specific rules on drop comb height etc. whle Hunter is open to match directors opinion. I have had my Silhouette rifles checked in the Jig but our club we don't have one. Far as I know no rule on the jig it's just a easy way for the match director to get consistent check on the Silhouette rifle class. Never had anybody put my Hunter gun in the jig

We let about anybody shoot anything just don't class questionable rifles as a Hunter. Think you will find thats the general pratice

Boats

Boats,

I would only disagree on the part of your description of a sporter as "out of the box" Rem/Win in that the stocks they have used are about sixty or seventy years out of date. They were designed when scopes were seldom, if ever, used by the hunting public. As such, when you shoulder one of them, you are looking right where the iron sights used to be. They are outmoded, obsolete or whatever you may wish to call them. That said, the current rule was intended to be interpreted as you are interpreting it. If it looks like a sporting rifle (other than the thumbhole exclusion), then it is a sporting or hunter rifle.

Though there is no requirement that the taper of the barrel be visually obvious, there is no point in having a barrel that the range official can not simply look at and see that it is tapered. This makes for a much simpler rule. I have not seen people trying to enter tactical rifles as a hunter in our area, but I doubt many of them make weight as a heavy gun in the first place and the stocks I have seen are almost without exception too deep in the belly to fit the rules of either class.

There is actually no provision in the rules for the jig which is used at nationals. It was intended to be a quick way to check the dimensions of the rule book. To my knowledge, there are two of them, both of which were made by Neal Ward. He made one for the NRA and kept one for himself. By the way, Neal says that there is enough tolerance in the jig to pass or fail most any rifle that is close so keep an eye on whoever is running it at nationals to make sure they do not inadvertently measure your rifle incorrectly. Most experienced 'smiths do not have a problem setting a rifle up correctly.

The one area which, in my view, is not worth much attention is the small differences in the drop at the toe of the rifle for individuals who need a long length of pull for the stock to fit them. You can take, oh, two seconds to look at the competitor and figure out that he needs a long length of pull and that the tip of the recoil pad, when following the contour of the stock, may be a little too long. I have seen some of them clipped off to fit the rule and the owner has usually said something about liking it better that way because the little rubber tip caught on things and was a nuisance anyway.

Even before the rule change which imposed the standard rifle dimensions on the hunter class stocks, all of the commercially manufactured stocks with which I am familiar were made so the the owner could shoot the rifle in both classes. So there is not really a change in the practical sense, although there may be an occasional stock out there that the owner modified or did not properly bed according to the instructions of the manufacturer and got the comb too high or the forend (belly) too low.

As a match director, a quick look at a hunter rifle, weighing it and checking the trigger pull will handle about 99.999% of the rifles. Match directors have better things to do than waste time checking out rifles. At the majority of club matches I have attended, there is not equipment check unless someone brings something up. A set of scales and a trigger pull gauge might be available for people to check their rifles over before the state match, but that is about it.

Frankly, I think that the present hunter rule has been an easy one to administer.

Regards,

Rick