Wouldn't Greg Connor by the one to make the call? At least for the national matches. I think it would be reasonable to email the NRA - hmm, maybe I will.

Brent, hey go for it. You better include your phone number also. Greg doesn't like computers.

Al Foust

I just did - and your reminder to add the phone number slipped in just in the nick of time, thanks. Greg has called me before, and only Greg (at NRA HQ) has a chance of knowing the history of why the rule, but Barry or Dennis should have a definitive answer. We shall see.

Brent

My interpretation is the same as Al's, and if I were running a registered match I would feel that I had no choice but to enforce it as written. I believe that's why it specifically says that the original barrel can be relined or re-bored to a larger caliber. As a competitor, I definitely would not travel to a match, especially one that is any significant distance away like the nationals, with a rifle that didn't meet what seems to me to be a very clear rule.

Jason, it never occurred to me to interpret the rule that narrowly. And until now, I have never heard anyone else that does. But I can see where you might be inclined to interpret it that way. To be honest, I'm more interested in the motivation behind the rule, regardless of the interpretation.

S, now, we wait. ...

Al, could be you are right but interpretation to this rule would be totally unenforceable. Additionally, there have been several shooters I know of who have replaced a factory barrel with another factory barrel (it was obvious) and it passed national tech. If I were to replace my factory 336 barrel with a new factory barrel how would you know? How could you tell?

Greg, I think the obvious answer is that some interpretations would be unenforceable with regards to situations as you describe, but all of us would like to be totally and absolutely legal, even if we can't prove it. and I expect you are also thinking that way.

In any event, below is the message I sent to Barry, Greg, and Dennis. I wrote it fast between other things I had to do, just like this post. So, if I didn't ask just the right question or ask it just the right way, please let me know and I'll try to get an answer if I get any dialog with them. But these guys aren't great fans of lengthy email discussions, so don't expect too much. Of course, you can always ask on your own. The email is [email protected]

Barry, Greg, or Dennis,

A number of us are having a discussion about how to interpret the original barrel rules for Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette. The rule books say that rifles have to have original barrels although they can be relined or rebored. But what is “original”? Does that mean original to a specific rifle? What if one sent a Marlin Microgroove rifle back to the factory and had it rebarreled with a “ballard” rifling barrel?

What if one bought a used Marlin barrel off of Ebay and screwed it on a Marlin rifle who’s barrel was rusted out?

If it were possible to mount a vintage Winchester barrel on a vintage Marlin rifle would that be allowed?

I guess we are looking for an interpretation of “original” original to a specific rifle or two a manufacturer?

We realize that some of these things might be all but impossible to detect, but we are interested in the correct spirit and interpretation of the rule nonetheless. If you could clarify this, that would be great.

As an aside, if you know the history of this rule, why was it created? It doesn’t really stop an arms race very well, so I was wondering if had some other motivation – like minimizing the impact on the market for vintage lever rifles or something like that.

Thanks,
Brent Danielson

Jason wrote:My interpretation is the same as Al's, and if I were running a registered match I would feel that I had no choice but to enforce it as written.

The beautiful thing about silhouette is that it is a skill game, not an equipment game. No matter how much customization or fiddling a shooter does to his equipment, a bad shooter is not going to consistently beat a good shooter. It's like playing golf or bike racing against a pro, the clubs and bicycle are not going to make the difference.

Most of these rules have nothing whatsoever to do with a shooter's score and most every high-end silhouette shooter I know is focused on his performance and execution at a match, NOT on whether the other competitors' equipment meets the letter of the rule book. I believe if you are shooting against me and your concern before the match is on my equipment, you've already lost. Your focus is in the wrong place and I'm about to stomp you.

However, the rules are there and we all kinda agree to more or less abide by those rules - and I believe that at a national championship match the rules need to be followed to the letter of the law - at NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP matches - . Regional and state championship matches are another story, and here, in my opinion, is why: In the current state of the game, the most important people are match directors - if there are no match directors there are no matches and if there are no matches, there is no sport. I believe a match director should run his match as he/she sees fit and should not be forced to be the bad guy. From a match director standpoint, my opinion is that I am NEVER going to send someone away because their rifle does not meet some arcane, useless rule that has no bearing whatsoever on their score (and I'm not going to force them to sand down/cut off a stock or tear down and rebuild a rifle to adjust a trigger). I think that defeats the spirit of the game and ruins the fun of the match. So if a rifle is close, it's going to be certified. (and a rebarreled lever gun is close enough, so is a hunter rifle that does not have a tapered barrel but otherwise meets the rules, so is a standard rifle that is 10lbs, 4oz instead of 10lbs, 2oz; so is a hunter rifle that's trigger is just under 2 lbs. - I could go on and on)

As a match director, I'm not sending away my paying, traveling shooters looking to have fun. BUT, there is always some shooter who insists on lodging a protest, so here is how protests are handled at my matches: First, the protestor is charged $25 to lodge the protest; it's non-refundable win or lose (it goes to the target setters usually). Second, regardless of when the protest is lodged, it is completely private until after the match. Once the match is over, the jury, the protestor and the protestee will all be called together and the jury will make it's decision. If the jury disqualifies the shooter, his or her score will not count (and I will likely refund their match fee). The reason I do it this way is because when I first started shooting I was protested at a big match and disqualified before the match started but still allowed to shoot - It didn't help. My match, my trip, and the whole weekend was ruined for me. I considered scrapping silhouette after that but I enjoyed it too much so I stuck with it. If the shooter doesn't even know about the protest until after the match, he still gets to shoot and it does not ruin the match for the shooter; and the vast majority of the time the shooter doesn't mind his/her score not counting unless it's a winning score.

The point of all this is that even at regional and state championship-level matches shooters should by and large be free to shoot what they have (within reason). Who cares?? If you get beat by a slightly non-conforming rifle and you don't like it, you should have hit more targets. Most of the big matches we go to barely look at the rifles for certification anyway, and that's how it should be. If you go to nationals, be forewarned that they're going to put you through the ringer and make sure you meet the rules. If you don't want to worry about all that crap, come to one of our matches The food is better anyway.

Also, to the question about rebarreling a cowboy rifle - I called Greg a couple of years ago to ask about sending a lever rifle back to Marlin to be rebarreled. I asked if it would be disqualified for not being the original barrel. His answer was, "how is anyone going to know?"

Dustin

Dustin, I don't think anyone disagrees with you. We just want to know what the rule really means (and, for me, why).

There are some factory made Winchester Schuetzen rifles. I wonder if anyone has tried bringing one to a match? I suppose they are specifically outlawed by virtue of the buttplate, but I'd hate to have to face one as a match director.

I am a tool and diemaker and a hobby gunsmith. I entirely built my .45-70 Highwall BPCR ,I made every spring and screw 'cept I bought rifled barrel blank...And now I am also shooting an entirely homebuilt Marlin 1892 .22, and again I used an after market barrel blank...Wanting now to also shoot the rifle cartridge lever action match -- I asked my match director if I could build up a .30-30 using an aftermarket barrel and he said sure, it was okay with him but I wouldn't be able to shoot it in a big match...Thinking all about it I decided I will just pass ..I am not a great shooter nor a hotshot gunsmith but just want to enjoy some shooting I didn't have a chance to do when I was young. I will stay with the games that welcome me and the guns that I want to play with.

You made your rifle from scratch just
like Winchester, and you out-sourced your barrel just like Winchester. In my book, that's at least as originalas any rifle out there! ! You are totally legal as far as I'm concerned.

Damn ed impressive too!

Yep, I'd agree with that. If you built your rifle, including using a barrel blank then the finished barrel is original to the rifle and therefore legal according to the rule being discussed here. I'm jealous of your skill, actually. If I had those skills and equipment, I'd build myself a copy of a Marlin 336 in 30-30 with a full length magazine, 26" octagon barrel and a pistol grip stock and be in love with it.

Alfawolf, Bingo, here it is in black and white right from the rule book.

1. Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette -
(a) Any lever action center rifle .25 caliber or larger with a tubular magazine of original manufacture or replica thereof.

Replica being the key word I don't see how your rifle could be denied according to this rule. I would very much like to see your rifle if you are going to be at Nationals. Your skills should be applauded not denied.

Al Foust

I need to chime in here concerning the post by Alphawolf45. I am the match director to whom he refers. The question that was posed to me was "can I put a Green Mountain barrel on an existing factory made rifle and shoot it. I answered that he could certainly use it at our local matches, but it would probably be disqualified at a regional, state or national match. Based on my interpretation of the "original barrel" rule, I think my answer was correct. As to his 1892, which is a work of art, that one meets both the letter and spirit of the rule in my opinion. If I misunderstood him, and he was talking about another rifle he has made, then that would be a different story. But as I said, the question I heard was about rebarreling a factory built rifle.

Greg

If the gun has been taken back to factory specs then I'm with Al, shoot that thing. We are having a regional in may and I say bring it. I would submit it to the silhouette dept before I'd shoot it at the Nationals. I like the way Dustin handles the protests. Was that an air rifle match that you were disqualified from Dustin ?