There are little hiccups in every sport. I think, overall, the NRA does a great job. We will try to have NRA CLA at the Oklahoma City Gun Club after the first of the year. We're patient folks who will obviously make errors and understand that most folks make a mistake every now and then. If we get to have the matches and you attend, we may forget to hand out an award or fill out a form correctly sometimes , but we will treat you like family , make the corrections and hope to do better at the next match.

Geln,
My response is in having spent many years dealing with the NRA silhouette department from the mantch directors point of view (going back as far as the late 70's)and having attended more than one national (NRA managed) in which the awards were not ready and were never sent. I have documentation of over 8 letters to the NRA (all the way up the chain to Charlten Heston) in order to recieve a trophy that I had won ( that ended up being a unique trophy). I still can put you in touch with some that never recieved their awards from that event, over 5 years ago. No excuses for that kind of sloppy representation of a 'National' competition. As recent as this year they have repeatadly lost paperwork submitted.

Mary

although i personally believe that fiber optic sights are outside the intent of the rules. i really dont care either way. seems stupid to me that a stevens favorite or winchester low wall that are cowboy era designs are not allowed but a model 60marlin is.. balh blah blah

as far as the NRA goes, i have not been to any Nationals yet, but i have been in contact many times for Marksmanship Qualification issues and rules clairifications. they S U C K.(this too is my opinions based on my personal interactions and experiences)

i believe that the competitive side of the NRA takes a very back seat to there fundraising side. i belong to many groups that fight for our rights , both gun groups and hunting groups. i have changed my NRA membership to acssociate for $10 a year just for the privilage of shooting scanctioned matches.

i am thrilled to hear that some one some where is having a good impression of the way the NRA handles anything but mebership renewal forms. but for me no such light has EVER been shown.heads up their a$$

dave

Has anyone gotten any type of reply from anyone at the NRA regarding the e-mails and letters that have been sent about the fiber optics?

This should be a good indicator as to how responsive the NRA is to the concerns of its members. I know I've sent communications both to Greg Connor and Michael Krei and have heard nothing from either one. Maybe I'm a cynic but I really didn't expect much.

Does anyone have a link to anything official about the 5 year moratorium on rule changes. It seems to me that if we can find that we ought to be able to KILL this whole issue. I don't care what they call it but if they want to allow the match directors to either allow or disallow fiber optics and leather cheek pieces that is a rule change. Since it's not in the written rules now then allowing that is a rule change.

Charles,

Our official statement regarding fiber optics in Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette:

At the meeting of the 2010 NRA Silhouette Committee the subject of fiber optic front sights for use in cowboy lever-action rifles was addressed. The fiber optic front sight made by a manufacturer will be allowed. The fiber optic material should be no longer than the sight itself. This is a clarification of Rifle Silhouette Rule 3.1.3.1. This subject will be brought before the 2011 NRA Silhouette Committee for review.

Feel free to post this online, brother.

Jonathan Leighton, Program Coordinator
Silhouette Department, NRA Competition Division

Are fiber optic sights allowed in Pistol Silhouette? Al

Al, scopes, and red dots and night sights are used in the Pistol silhouette that I have shot.
Mary

cslcAl wrote:Are fiber optic sights allowed in Pistol Silhouette? Al

I don't have the rules in front of me, but I don't recall it even being addressed.

Other than the occasional Stainless Ruger Mark III "Hunter" model that came with a fiber optic front site, I've never seen one on a pistol at a HP Silhouette match.

-Tim

Yes, fiber optic sights are permitted in pistol silhouette.

Re: NO MORE FIBER OPTIC FRONT SIGHTS FOR COWBOY
by PhxShooter on Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:17 pm

Has anyone gotten any type of reply from anyone at the NRA regarding the e-mails and letters that have been sent about the fiber optics?

This should be a good indicator as to how responsive the NRA is to the concerns of its members. I know I've sent communications both to Greg Connor and Michael Krei and have heard nothing from either one. Maybe I'm a cynic but I really didn't expect much

I sent an email to Mr. Krei and promptly got a reply. I guess I must have pushed the right button.

Dear Mr Krei,

My name is Alan Foust. I have been a silhouette match director at Consolidated Sportsmen of Lycoming Co. near Williamsport, Pa. for many years. I have administered many Pa. state championships; and have been a competitor at national silhouette championships since 1986.
I strongly disagree with the committee’s ruling to let the match directors decide whether to allow fiber optic sights or not. This should be an across the board decision by the silhouette committee. If they are not going to be allowed at Raton during the national matches, then they should not be allowed the rest of the year either; or visa versa. You are putting me in a very awkward position. No matter what I decide someone will not agree. If there is truly a five year moratorium on rule changes this issue should have been let go for the time limit. This appears to me to be a back door way for some people to get their own way, with a total disregard as to what many shooters feel is an acceptable practice.
The majority of shooters who shoot Cowboy silhouette are older folks who don’t have as good of vision that they did in their younger years. In my own case if I couldn’t use a small rear sight target aperture I would not see the front sight at all .
I know a lot of this issue is driven by some peoples traditional views of lever guns. Let me site an example from the game laws of the state of Pa. We have had for years a traditional flintlock muzzleloader deer season. Several years ago they allowed fiber optic sights and just last year they allowed peep sights. Why did they do this? They did it to allow vision impaired hunters the opportunity to have a better chance to make a clean killing shot on a deer without just wounding the animal, and making it suffer. This did not please the traditional hunters; but it was the right thing to do.
I hope this matter is given further consideration, and I would very much like to be informed of any formal decisions.

Thank-you,

Alan Foust

Dear Mr. Foust,
NRA developed Lever Action Silhouette competition to be shot with production guns. It is not in the best interest of the sport to start the equipment race on lever action rifles by allowing non-production sights. The reason why your sport is declining is that firearms have been allowed to be changed and now to be competitive a person has to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars do modify their rifles. Any move away from standard production rifles will eliminate the person wanting to start shooting NRA competitions.

I have asked all of NRA’s Committees to stop our competitions from becoming an equipment race. The subject of fiber optics sights is still under review and we will contact you when a final decision has been made. Match Directors will not have the option to allow or disallow a change in sights.

Regards,
Mike Krei

Thanks Al.... But now his comments begs more questions, this statement...
NRA developed Lever Action Silhouette competition to be shot with production guns. It is not in the best interest of the sport to start the equipment race on lever action rifles by allowing non-production sights.

This almost seems to indicate that the Lyman 17A front globes and rear peeps will not be allowed as 'Production guns & Production sights' seems to indicate that are only going to allow the standard front post and rear beaver tail/buckhorn type sights that come on the production rifles. Or is it just more of the uneducated making the rules. I can live without the fiber optics (maybe) but if we have to eliminate the rear peeps and globes this type decision will do more to kill this sport that any one other decision.

Seems to me with all the contradictions we are getting (even from within the NRA) we will just have to now wait till they print the new rules to see what the real intent is.

It is just like the rule not allowing period type single shot rifles to compete, but then they allow a semi auto tube feed to be legal... that defies common sense.

If they allowed the big, long barreled period correct single shots, no one would use anything else.

Jason wrote:If they allowed the big, long barreled period correct single shots, no one would use anything else.

I am not sure just what that is supposed to mean when the discussion is about sights, but, when in doubt, take a look at the name of the game...Lever Action. I may have missed something, but I don't think "the big, long barreled period correct single shots" fit the description. Even if they were allowed, I doubt many people would shoot them. The barrels are too long (and heavy) and simply unnecessary to deliver the levels of required energy for the lever action/pistol cartridge game. One of the black cartridge shooters shoots a .22 LR version of just such a rifle in our smallbore rifle events and, quite frankly, it is a handful. He enjoys it nonetheless as it is practice for the chickens in the black powder game.

With regard to the sights, Mr. Krei has amply demonstrated, in just a few sentences, what is wrong with the NRA hierarchy and why we might be better off without them.

It was a reply to reason for not allowing period correct single shots. The long, heavy barrel (slower wobble) compared with long sight radius (more precision) would quickly overtake the actual lever guns in the competitions. I would probably get one, just because I think they're really cool. Now that I've made master and gotten my grand slam in smallbore and PC cowboy (the ones I shoot often), I'm actually looking for something new and trying to figure out what I can be sure not to see in the hands of anyone else.

I too wrote a letter or Email and got the very same reply that Al did.
In principle I agree with his reply that the sport should be simple and we should not allow it to become an equipment race but Michael Krei did not do his home work before replying to us.

First of all the NRA did not develop the sport of Cowboy LA Silhouette rifle we were shooting in CA, NM, AZ, TX and other states way before the NRA decided to sanction the Cowboy matches.

I was in the Silhouette Committee alongside Jack Hill in the late 1990's. Jack Hill and I began to ask our committee chairman Bill Miller to sanction the matches since we both saw the potential for the sport to be even more popular than the BP cartridge which was attracting the largest participation of all silhouette matches at the Nationals at that time (not there yet but hopefully soon). After a couple of years of talking with Bill Miller at the yearly meetings Jack and I finally were able to convince him and Bill told Greg Connor that he had to sanction the Cowboy Sil Rifle matches before that year Greg would tell us that the Cowboy shooters that shot at Raton, NM. told him several times they did not want the NRA to have anything to do with their sport because they would ultimately screw it up like the other silhouette shooting sports. Greg was forced to sanction the matches but he got even with us by not hosting the first National match until after five years of having Regional matches at Raton to prove to the NRA that a National was going to draw enough participation. The rest is history and after the Cowboy matches were sanctioned the sport took off like wild fire through out the nation and I remember when looking at the USA shooting sports back pages to see that there were more cowboy matches being held than any other silhouette shooting discipline.

The second point I want to make regarding Michael Krei reply is that the sport of Cowboy LA Rifle Silhouette is not declining, this year we got the highest participation at the Cowboy Nationals while most other silhouette disciplines are struggling to keep afloat Cowboy matches are not, at least in CA and AZ where I shoot.

The problem I have with the NRA silhouette department is that they do not enforce the rules from the beginning and when some shooters started using questionable equipment like fiber optic front sights, very expensive mid range tang sights that were not made to be used in lever action rifles, leather cheek pieces, placing post and beads upside down on the front sights, etc. the NRA let them use them for several years even though it was not in the best interest of the sport. I should say that none of those things I mentioned seemed to make a lot of difference in the outcome of the matches. But now by trying to undo what they should have done from the beginning they are antagonizing a lot of shooters that went to a lot of trouble and expense to find a front sight that they can see.

I really don't care if they outlaw or disallow the use of fiber optics what I am concern about is about the shooters that we would lose because of it and I am not talking about the one or two that may have won an important match using fiber optic front sights I am talking about the many senior shooters whose failing eye sight led them into using fiber optic sights. Tony Tello