Rules question on loading...

[kevinbear]

Sounds good, very similar in case capacity to my 7mm IHMSA without the headaches involved in making the cases.

[Trent]

Thats kind of what I was thinking.

I'm surprised that no one ever made factory 7IHMSA brass.

[kevinbear]

Your supposed to make it from 300 savage brass but I've never been satisfied with it made that way. If I remember right at one time you could buy cases from Elgin Gates, they were expensive.
My brass is made from 308 Lapua, a very tedious process but there the best.

[lone ringer]

Its a secret.

7mm Creedmoor (wildcat at this point). Uses the same 6.5 Creedmoor brass that I use just necked up to 7mm. Fits in the magazine with tons of room to spare, and gets a better filled case along with slightly reduced velocities. Seems much better than doing the reduced 7-08 loads that we do now. It really seems like a great silhouette cartridge. Little shorter case and steeper shoulder than the 7-08. Brass would be made easily with a single pass through a .284 expander. I think it would be a great partner to my 6.5 Creedmoor. It may just be the perfect silo cartridge. Light recoil and still shoot the 168 SMKs at our silhouette velocities, and can touch the lands and load all rounds from the magazine. Sounds like a great hunter rifle cartridge.

Sorry for getting off topic Dee.

Another secret is the 7X47 Lapua necking up the 6.5X47 Lapua brass and two old 7mm "secrets" are the 7mm IHMSA using the 300 Savage brass and a short 7-08 using also the 300 Savage case but does not require the use of expensive dies, that particular case has been made by at least two of my friends that put their names to it 7mm Wally and 7mm Woody. They ran the 7-08 reamer short and they cut the bottom of 7-08 dies. By how much? I really do not know since I am not a gunsmith but I have seen several of those rifles still in use by a couple of great shooting ladies from Phoenix, AZ. Before the 260 Remington made its debut I used the 7mm IHMSA in my Standard rifles and a 243 Win in the hunting class rifle since we were not allowed to shoot wildcat cartridges. After 1997 I went to the 6.5's and have not looked back, although I still own several 7mm rifles that seldom get used. The 7mm Creedmore, 7mmx47 Lapua, 7mm IHMSA, 7mm Wally and 7mm Woody have pretty much the same case capacity and they perform as good as the 7-08 but with about 3 to 4 gr. less of powder.

[lone ringer]

My friend Ralph Corral and I made our short range 7mm IHMSA ammo with 300 Savage brass and for the Rams we used the 308 Remington BR brass with the Small Rifle primers. The reason we did that is because we got tired of ringing rams when using 36 gr of 4064 so we went to the Rem BR brass to get more powder in the cases and then we used 4350 with a 168 or 175 Sierra bullets. No more ringing rams with that combination.
Disclaimer. I did not post our ram powder charge on purpose suffice to say that it was almost identical to our 7-08 loads. I recommend to start 10% lower than published loads and work up from there.

[kevinbear]

I use 414 with 162's and 168's, never lost a ram but the load is warm.

[Jim Beckley]

If I'm not mistaken two things brought on this rule change, first when alot were playing with the br case, wouldn't feed repeatedly with the mag to capacity, then when quite a few were shooting the then new rem ss detachable box mag the acccuracy wasn't there after the throat wore alittle, so some were loading by just putting the round on top of the mag.

[Dee]

If I'm not mistaken two things brought on this rule change, first when alot were playing with the br case, wouldn't feed repeatedly with the mag to capacity, then when quite a few were shooting the then new rem ss detachable box mag the acccuracy wasn't there after the throat wore alittle, so some were loading by just putting the round on top of the mag.

Thanks for some background info Jim.

Interesting that the mag loaded rounds would produce more throat wear. But when you think about it most people I know that hunt but don't shoot usually make a 20 pack of Rem. off the shelf last 2-3 years or longer. So I guess a true hunting rifle is likely to never see the kinds of rounds sent down the barrel as a competition gun shooting under a Hunter designation. I am surprised they don't take that into account with this rule. I know they are trying to maintain the spirit of things but if something so mundane as how a round is chambered is causing premature equipment issues on highly used rifles. All other things IE rifle weight, stock shape, trigger pull etc being equal I just don't see loading as a subject even requiring a rule.

And no Kevin I am not asking for a Rule change.


Dee

[Snake]

So long as the rifle is loaded from the magazine then who cares if all rounds or just one round gets loaded into the mag.....enforcement would be a little silly because the advantage would be to the topped up mag (faster loading...more time on target)
Trent ...consider setting the shoulder back on a 7-08 thus lengthening the neck and then blowing them out to 40 degrees. longer necks (ala 222 rem) generally produce better accuracy ...so history tells us. Relative to diameter the 7-08 has a short neck vs a 260....hence less neck tension (less neck) and maybe that's why 7-08's shoot better with the projectile in the lands.

[kevinbear]

There is numerous reasons why most rifles will be more accurate with bullets seated into the lands {if you doubt my statement attend a benchrest match and start asking questions}.
1. All else being equel the bullet has a much better chance of starting down the barrel straight with no yaw.
2. The bullet not being able to move {being held back by the intial engraving process} on primer pressure alone helps combustion inside the case, this means more powder burning inside the case instead of being blown forward behind the bullet and burning in the barrel. This results in much better consistancy hence the short fat cartridges with steep shoulders dominating accuracy games.
On the down side of this loading technique seating bullets into the lands creates a steep pressure curve so that load that was just fine as far as pressure may stick the bolt when loaded this way.
Also if your rifle's chamber is not perfectly in line with the bore it may actually shoot much worse loaded in this manner because you are forcing the bullet into the barrel crooked, the same result can be seen with cases with necks that are not concentric effecting the same situation.
If you really want an accurate rifle fitted cases are the way to go, it is not necessary for an offhand game with "relatively large" targets like silhouette animals.
After I wrote that I thought, turkeys don't seem large!

[Jason]

Interesting that the mag loaded rounds would produce more throat wear.

I don't understand how mag-loaded rounds would produce more throat wear. I thought he meant that after a certain amount of throat erosion due to the higher number of rounds that match rifles go through, it was no longer possible to have bullets seated far enough out to touch the lands (or be close to it) and still be short enough to fit in the magazine. Did I miss something there?

[kevinbear]

Throat erosion is a result of burning powder and gases hitting the inital rifling at high velocity and to a lesser extent the engraving process on the bullet. Visualize using a cutting torch on a piece of metal, once the metal is heated it's easily blown away, that's an extreme analogy but gives you an idea of the process. I do not see how small seating depth variations could effect this.
One thing that I wanted to comment on was Remingtons throat lenghts in 7-08's and 260's, the first 700BDL's {varmints} had very short throats, it was difficult to seat 168mk without having it slip into the case, many people took them to a gunsmith and had them lengthend. When they started chambering sporters in 7-08 they had throats that were just about perfect, slightly less than a caliber. I got a new one a couple of months ago and they have not changed.
When I got my first 260 I was very disappointed to find that it had a very long throat leaving a very short window in the barrels life where lighter bullets could be seated to touch the rifleing, and forget about loading rounds in the magazine they were to long from day one.

[Jim Beckley]

I should have stated that the rounds were loaded to reach the lands and would no longer fit the detachable box magazine.

[Jerry G]

So................. You could load "long" rounds from a magazine if you built a 260 on a long action. What's the point?

[RBriscoe]

Its a secret.

7mm Creedmoor (wildcat at this point). Uses the same 6.5 Creedmoor brass that I use just necked up to 7mm. Fits in the magazine with tons of room to spare, and gets a better filled case along with slightly reduced velocities. Seems much better than doing the reduced 7-08 loads that we do now. It really seems like a great silhouette cartridge. Little shorter case and steeper shoulder than the 7-08. Brass would be made easily with a single pass through a .284 expander. I think it would be a great partner to my 6.5 Creedmoor. It may just be the perfect silo cartridge. Light recoil and still shoot the 168 SMKs at our silhouette velocities, and can touch the lands and load all rounds from the magazine. Sounds like a great hunter rifle cartridge.

Sorry for getting off topic Dee.

That's already been done, except withe 6.5x47 Lapua brass. The case capacity is the same as the 7mm IHMSA or the 7mm Wally. It's not a bad little cartridge and it shoots a few grains less powder than a 7-08.