When I first started shooting silhouette hunting class rifles were not common, trying to hold a light rifle and get a good shot off with a 2lb trigger was very difficult. My advice to new people is shoot a heavy standard rifle until your a good AA shooter, then switch to heavy hunting rifle and sell the standard rifle.
Kb

And my suggestion...for many years....has been to reduce the game to one gun only. Pick which one you like to shoot then shoot it. Why hold matches with 2 slightly different rifles, the scores are not different, the same folks are the winners, and this would reduce the costs appreciably for both the shooters and match directors. The game started with one gun, let’s go back to one gun matches.

Some people love to shoot and some shooters love to tinker so it's great that we can accomodate them.

We just need Anschutz to come up with a two way trigger that has a switch you can flip to go from 4 ounces to 2 lbs back and forth. Then a couple of drop in weights to give the rifle a little more heft and walla the single rifle two gun rifle is born. I do like the larger style Standard rifle stocks McMillan makes after the wooden Anschutz style with the thumbhole or pistol grip more pronounced like on the 10m air rifles. That would be hard to make into a quick change feature. Dare to dream I guess. The flip switch trigger would be very cool if it could be done which I am sure it could if you have enough $ and desire. By then though you could probably buy 2 rifles anyway.


Dee

There is no way I'd shoot JUST a standard rifle. That doesn't make sense since we can shoot both classes with a hunter gun. I think having 2 guns is pretty cool but I wouldn't want to shoot 2 if the hunter gun will suffer after shooting a standard gun trigger. HOWEVER, if I can shoot better scores with a standard gun and not affect the hunter scores, I'm getting a standard gun!

Dustin

Honestly, I think this is just a way for people to think they are making a hard sport easier! Not the case if you ask me. Only way you get better is with practice, PERIOD!

Let us not forget why hunter gun class was created. It was created so that the sport would be attractive to new shooters. The fact that Hunter scores and Standard scores are so close is a clear signal that we have abused that purpose. These $2,000 + hunter rifles that allow competitors to only shoot one gun and still remain competitive in Standard class are leading us away from the original intent. These are my thoughts. I could be wrong and I am not completely innocent since my model 64 Hunter gun now wears a Pharr stock.

Maybe what we should reconfigure is the Standard class and it should be designated "unlimited" and remove the restrictions that make the two classes so close .

I personally think that the hunter gun should have to.be a factory gun with all the limitations that are in the rules. I don't think 2 stage triggers should be allowed in hunter gun or, if they are, the SECOND STAGE should have to be 2 pounds. I also think that there should be no limits on standard guns whatsoever. However, that is not the way it is and this is not meant to be a discussion about shortcuts or the importance of practice or anything like that....

The question is simply whether there is any real advantage to a standard gun under the rules. I have noticed that some of the best shooters in the country shoot 2 guns and I've talked to lots of them. I think another gun is a consideration but I also think there is some substance to the one gun argument.

Anyone else have experience with 2 guns vs. 1 that you'd like to share?

Dustin

Dejavue, I was in rare form on this one!!! This is interesting reading for you new guys.
http://www.steelchickens.com/forums/vie ... f=1&t=2815

Here's a novel suggestion: Leave it the Hell alone. (As TXCharlie said; 'ONE gun, ONE match, the way the game was originally played.')

Believe it or not, every one of these 9-sided wheels that are being touted here was invented, tried and determined to be a failure in the past.

Just like the old saw holds true for combat ("Those who avoided the fight last time won't go to the next one.") we can apply the same thinking to competition...and, maybe to life in general:
People who will accept the challenge and strive for excellence will wind up at the top. The rest will try to change things until the standards are lowered to their own abilities.

Go out, practice and shoot! Stop trying to turn the game into Chip-n-putt golf.

No matter how you slice it you will still have 2 guns needed to make attending a match truly worthwhile. The souped up Hunter rifles allow people to shoot nice rifles in both classes with one gun and still have a chance at Standard while adhering to the "spirit" of the rules. Equipment can be costly and good equipment for any sport or hobby is usually pricy. Once you have it the expense of participating alone ends up costing more with gas and travel, hotel, entry fees etc. I have spent more going to Winnsboro than I did on my rifle. Hell even ammo costs shooting SK+ in 4-5 cases of ammo I have exceeded the expense of the rifle. I wouldn't spend all that money to shoot in just Hunter Class nor to shoot just Standard. If you want to make sure everyone is on the same playing field equipment wise the only way is to have a stock class and everyone uses the same rifles and scopes.

I've still yet to see a perfect 40 shot with ANY rifle. So it must still be hard enough as it is now.

Amen to what nomad had to say!

Dee I was lucky enough to hear the result of a perfect 40 when Luke shot one in the warmup match at the nationals. You know it's a sight to see when people start huddling around that one shooter! That's the only time I've seen it done though!

[color=#FF0000][/color][quote="nomad"]Here's a novel suggestion: Leave it the Hell alone. (As TXCharlie said; [color=#FF0000][color=#FF0000]'ONE gun, ONE match, the way the game was originally played[/color].')[/color]
Believe it or not, every one of these 9-sided wheels that are being touted here were invented, tried and determined to be failures in the past.

Just like the old saw holds true for combat ("Those who avoided the fight last time won't go to the next one.") we can apply the same thinking to competition...and, maybe to life in general:
People who will accept the challenge and strive for excellence will wind up at the top. The rest will try to change things until the standards are lowered to their own abilities.

Go out, practice and shoot! Stop trying to turn the game into Chip-n-putt golf.[/quote]


So were going to shoot live animals with 30-06's and 270's? ha ha
I had to throw that in because that's what came to mind, I've been railing forever to try and keep the hunting rifle class as traditional and stock as possible but every so often the game players start crying about how they can't customize there way into master class. If they worked that hard on customizing they gray matter between their ears for the game a 10-22 would suffice.

Actually, the 'factory stock' Hunter was about as successful as the Titanic. I was running matches and working on the line -- up to Nationals level -- when we had that rule and it was a DISASTER! (The rule that is. IMO I ran the matches and the line pretty well! LOL)

I won't even begin to talk about all the barracks lawyers and the gyrations they went into -- but consider this:

If a new, Factory Stock, Anschutz 1712 is around $1800 BEFORE taxes, shipping, paperwork etc ad nauseum (and fits ALL the requirements for an unmodified factory rifle) then where is the financial advantage over a 'custom' and how does that become an entry level gun? Cooper produced a $$$$$ rule beater for a while and so have others. Factory Stock just isn't a viable answer.

What we have, works. It isn't perfect but we're doing very well with it. Let's play the game and avoid petty rules hassles. (Besides, every time the powers-that-be switch the rules, we lose more competitors than we do from anything else I can think of!)

People who look for the challenge and enjoy the game will play it; and work up to the rules on equipment. The rest are nothing more than transients. Modifying the rules for transients is pretty much counter-productive.

Here's the suggestion that I've made for years to people who want rule changes:
Come up with the new rule -- as it will be printed and implemented -- and post it here just as it would show up in the rule book. The rest of us will try to tear it up. If it stands the test, then submit it to the committee. If it gets ripped up (or is shown to be unworkable, avoidable, subject to 'interpretation' or just plain stupid or valueless) then fix it and try again or sh*tcan it and go back to working on what's really important.

Complaining about the rules is easy. Writing good, bulletproof rules is difficult. At least a couple of the rules in the book are ones that I formulated and submitted...or corrected from poorly written predecessor rules. Creating good, necessary rules takes a long time and a lot of effort...and even then, somebody often manages to find holes in them.

This thread has pretty much gone to crap. My question was simple: forgetting everything else, do those with experience shooting two guns find an improvement in their SCORE with 2 guns vs 1 gun?

Let's ASSUME that everyone agrees that practice is the best way to get better. Let's also assume that no one is trying to buy their way into master class and no one is doing anything that offends anyone.

Here are a few examples of proper answers to this question:

"I shoot 2 guns and my scores are better than they were when I shot just a hunter gun."

"I tried 2 guns but couldn't get used to the different triggers/weight/feel and my scores went down"

"I don't see any differences in score with 2 guns vs 1 gun"

Dustin