I found out tonight that my weak extraction returned. It wasn't the groove causing the issue after all. Or at least it isn't the main problem.

I am back to looking at the extractors as the root of the problem as Edgehit mentioned. I too would buy VQ extractors TONIGHT if they made them for Anschutz rifles.

I have measured my Annie 64 bolt and the distance between the extractor tips is .227" I also measured a few of my other rifles for a comparison.

Savage MKII BV = .190"
Mossberg 44US = .215"
Mossberg 142a = .205"
Mossberg 146b = .175"

I don't know if any of you own Mossbergs but one thing they ARE NOT known for is weak ejection. My model 146b will throw empty cases nearly 10 feet if I open the bolt quickly. Conspicuous enough, that bolt has the tightest tolerance between the tips of extractors. I am starting to look at the spread between extractor tips as the problem. I know I am not the first person to come to this conclusion. Even my 44US with .215" clearance throws the cases pretty well.

I am having this same conversation over on RFC so I am sorry for any redundancy. I would be grateful if anyone following this thread here on SC wouldn't mind measuring the distance between the tips of their extractors on the rifles they have that are having weak ejection, and the ones that are not. Also, measuring any other brands in order to develop a baseline for what dimensions are being used by other manufactures.

I did some searching and found this.
BTW - Numerous people are having a similar problem.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... er=1102676

Someone thinks they have fixed their rifle.

When I get some time, I might try this too.

Jerry

Evelio,

My 1416L that I bought last year has the groove at 2 o'clock, probably because it is a left hand action. Ejection is fine.

Trent, I posted a picture in a previous post. My ejectors are .230 apart and it takes about 1.8 lbs. to start to move them apart.
ppkny

ppkny wrote:Trent, I posted a picture in a previous post. My ejectors are .230 apart and it takes about 1.8 lbs. to start to move them apart.
ppkny

Your ejectors are .230" apart?? How is it even holding a case? That is wider than all the cases on the brands of ammo that I have. If you take your bolt out of the gun and slip a case into the bolt face, does it hold on to them?

Thanks for the info ppkny!

AZRifle wrote:I did some searching and found this.
BTW - Numerous people are having a similar problem.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthr ... er=1102676

Someone thinks they have fixed their rifle.

When I get some time, I might try this too.

Jerry

I think I read his post over on RFC. I may end up trying that if I can't come up with anything else. One thing that bothers me about that is that my extractors slide fore and aft rather easily. I'm not sure what to call it other than slop. Removing material at that spot as shown in the linked thread will just increase that "slop". I may end up trying it though.

These extractors work kind of like a piddly wink (if you remember that game). I guess his adjusting the extractor may have changed the angles enough to alter the force applied from the cartridge retainer (left extractor). I am going to look at it and think on this.

The Savage parts are so near being interchangeable. I am looking at them trying to see if there is a chance of swapping parts with no modifications to the bolt. Would have to make some changes to the Savage parts though. (Would need to order some extractors from Savage.

Trent, Are we talking the same language? The bullett diameter is about .223 the RIM is about .274. My extractors are about .230 apart, plenty to grab the bullett RIM.



ppkny

Trent
Well I tried to stay away from this one, but anyway, first you don't really have an extraction problem, you have and ejection problem. The actual ejector is not part of the bolt, it is a small potrusion on top, and in the back of the loading gate. The bolt when moved back extracts the case out of the chamber, and as the backward motion continues, the rim of the case hits this potrusion, and it knocks the case off the bolt, the faster or harder backwards motion of the bolt determines how hard the case is ejected. This is why Anchutz recomends moving the bolt faster, or harder againts the back, and as you are already aware the bolt stop is what actually stops this motion, not the trigger.
If you look at the bottom of the bolt, you will see a groove about .050" wide and about 1 1/2" long in the front section of the bolt, this is the clearance groove require for the bolt to slide over the case knockout potrusion in the loading gate.
With the bolt out of the gun, you should be able to insert a case in the bolt, and it should stay in place, and not fall out, now if you look closely at the groove, you will see a section of the rim of the case, expose in the groove, this is where that small potrusion in the gate or guide what ever they call it, strikes the case and knocks it out. This gate or guide is held in place by one screw, you can loosen the screw, and push the gate forward, and tighten back the screw, or you can remove the bolt stop, and very carefully grind off or file no more than .010" of the front. The idea is to increase the amount of contact between the ejector, and the rim of the case, before the bolt backward motion comes to a solid stop. Sometimes replacing the gate with a new one will do the trick
Evelio.

PPKNY
You must have posted that picture about the time, I was typing, that picture pretty much explain what I was trying to say. You can clearly see the case in place, the groove, and the area of the rim where the ejector will strike the case.
Evelio.

ppkny, when you say that the "bullet" is .223" do you mean the case? If so, then the tips of your extractors are .007 wider than the case itself.

On my rifle the extractors don't even touch the case rim (except when pulling a case from the chamber and hooked behind the rim). In your photo it looks like your extractors are pressing on the case rim rather than on the sides of the case. On mine, the extractors are set forward enough that there is a gap between the extractors and the rim. Same thing on my Savage.

I'm having a tough time explaining the contact points. Usually I am very good at explaining things in writing.

Thank you for posting that photo. It seems that there maybe some variation in fit and interaction. I am going to post another observation and change that I made in a minute.

Evelio Mc Donald wrote:Trent
Well I tried to stay away from this one, but anyway, first you don't really have an extraction problem, you have and ejection problem. The actual ejector is not part of the bolt, it is a small potrusion on top, and in the back of the loading gate. The bolt when moved back extracts the case out of the chamber, and as the backward motion continues, the rim of the case hits this potrusion, and it knocks the case off the bolt, the faster or harder backwards motion of the bolt determines how hard the case is ejected. This is why Anchutz recomends moving the bolt faster, or harder againts the back, and as you are already aware the bolt stop is what actually stops this motion, not the trigger.
If you look at the bottom of the bolt, you will see a groove about .050" wide and about 1 1/2" long in the front section of the bolt, this is the clearance groove require for the bolt to slide over the case knockout potrusion in the loading gate.
With the bolt out of the gun, you should be able to insert a case in the bolt, and it should stay in place, and not fall out, now if you look closely at the groove, you will see a section of the rim of the case, expose in the groove, this is where that small potrusion in the gate or guide what ever they call it, strikes the case and knocks it out. This gate or guide is held in place by one screw, you can loosen the screw, and push the gate forward, and tighten back the screw, or you can remove the bolt stop, and very carefully grind off or file no more than .010" of the front. The idea is to increase the amount of contact between the ejector, and the rim of the case, before the bolt backward motion comes to a solid stop. Sometimes replacing the gate with a new one will do the trick
Evelio.

Evelio, No disrespect intended here but I am well aware that this is an ejection problem. I do appreciate any input that you can provide. I understand the interaction between the ejector, case retainer and extractor fairly well. The extraction and ejection is handled nearly the same on virtually every bolt action rifle that I have experience with. Like I said, no disrespect but I just want to make it clear that I am very aware that this is an ejection problem, but the problem isn't with the ejector... it is with the extractors and how they are interacting with the fired case.

Pulling back sharply isn't the fix. Not for me anyway.

I have a 1712 that would eject maybe one out of 50 out the right side. Most were straight up and some fell out the left or bounced back in. I swapped the extractor and what I call the holder and the metal clip with a set from my 1702 and it helped out alot. Now very few fall back in. The 1702 still ejects with alot more authority than the 1712. But at least they are both ejecting. I don't know which one officially helped. I believe the extractor/holder was the issue. The one out of my 1712 originally held the case alot tighter.

Ok... first and foremost the changes I am making are to readily replaced parts and should my changes not work then a new extractor and retainer set is only a phone call away.

I wish I had a high speed camera so that I wouldn't have to try explaining this with words. Pictures are worth a thousand words, and high speed video must be worth a billion!

Anyway. I studied my Anschutz and my Savage side by side and ejection after ejection. It is amazing how two systems that are so closely identical can have such different ejection patterns. My Savage ejects cases in a beautiful upward and slightly forward arch. My Anschutz ejects in more of an in place spin and erratic out of control tumble. Sometimes it ricochets off of something in the breech area and the cases make their way out. Other times it just spins back into the breech.

Something in the Savage is interacting with the case and sending it on it's predictable path. Something that isn't happening in the Anschutz. Looking at the EXTRACTORS and comparing them it is pretty obvious that the Savage extractor has much more intentional shaping to it. On the other hand the Anschutz extractor is just square at the tip. See the photo below and ignore the red arrow but look at the square tip of the extractor (the next photo after that will show the change that I have made to the Anschutz extractor... still needs more smoothing with a fine stone).



You can see in the next photo that I have mimicked the "hook" that the Savage extractor has. I am going to do a little more smoothing and rounding of the "hook" and then I will reblue the extractor.




After my failure with the "over pressure vent" I hesitate to say that I have fixed my issue... buuuuut, I am getting solid and consistent ejection of fired cases. The cases are ejecting consistently to the same 1 o'clock position and about 5 feet away now. There is still room for improvement on the Anschutz extractor when comparing it to the Savage part. The Savage "hook" is much more pronounced.

If my rifle would have ejected like ppkny says his does I may have been satisfied enough to leave it as is, but mine wasn't ejecting and 9 times out of ten the fired case would end up in my left hand after it dribbled out of the left side of the breech. That is distracting when shooting. Besides that, it is frustrating when a bunch of my low dollar rifles can fling the cases well away from me.

Trent
No disrespect what so ever, I respect everybodies opinion, and I am not perfect, as a matter of fact I learned something new about the groove in the front of the bolt face, I thought I seen everything, but I guess I missed that one.
I was just trying to help, since I solved that problem many times, I guess there are many different ways to tackle the same problem.
What I still don't understand, is how you can make those cases eject, without actually moving the bolt back all the way and hitting the ejector ????
I am glad you fixed your problem
Evelio.

Evelio Mc Donald wrote:Trent
No disrespect what so ever, I respect everybodies opinion, and I am not perfect, as a matter of fact I learned something new about the groove in the front of the bolt face, I thought I seen everything, but I guess I missed that one.
I was just trying to help, since I solved that problem many times, I guess there are many different ways to tackle the same problem.
What I still don't understand, is how you can make those cases eject, without actually moving the bolt back all the way and hitting the ejector ????
I am glad you fixed your problem
Evelio.

Evelio, I totally agree that different changes would end up with the same results. It is funny how something seemingly so simple is actually so complicated.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I am somehow not hitting the ejector. I'm not sure I mentioned that. I am absolutely operating the bolt as normal and pulling it all the way to the rear and ejecting the case against the ejector. Or are you joking with me?