Bull barrel but tappered down OK for hunter?

[Innocent]

Kevinbear, very good points, but some of us are using the Winchester 52's, with good glass. Granted I used to use a Win 67 with a Bushnell, made AA class with it, that was until '98 or so.
The different classes do allow for competition, one of the biggest issues is the fact that eventually the average shooter will get into a class that they cannot compete in. There are the 'good days' and all it takes is 3 of them in a year.

Mary

[kevinbear]

I made it to AAA with a 541 and a used leupold target, back before the anschutz invasion. Not hardly 2500.00 rig, it can be done, as most of us know its the gray matter between the ears that is the most important equipment. The problem is intimidation factor on new shooters.

[hambone49]

I agree , although I am one of the worst offenders. It's almost like the steroid issue in sports; if you are doing it and beating me, I'm going to do it too. Agreed, a good shot is a good shot no matter what he's shooting,
but as it sits there is not really much deliniation between hunter and standard class. As you may know most people are using one gun these days; for convieniece of travel, familiarity, costs, etc. As Steve said, the gray areas in the rules has allowed this to happen, but boy oh boy, what will we do if they do change? Remember the chin guns?

[Jetmugg]

When I shot my first Silhouette match (only a few years ago), I brought along a CZ 452 and a BSA scope, fully intending to shoot both classes. The reason I wanted to shoot in both classes is because there is a limited amount of Silo matches that I would be able to attend, and I wanted to get as much shootin' in as possible.

My buddy did the same thing, and brought his plastic-stocked Savage Mk-whatever and a cheap Tasco scope.

We both had a tremendous amount of fun, just happy to hit a few targets. Since then, I upgraded the CZ trigger, put a Weaver T-15 scope on it, tried a different stock, home-spun pillar bed, etc.

Then I bought a 1712 FWT, and shoot it in both classes. Yes, this is a fairly expensive rifle, but is every bit as much of a true "hunting" rifle as a Savage, Remington 504, CZ 452 Varmint or American.

There are a bunch of shooters who attend the local matches here and only shoot in standard class. Some of them have high-dollar rifles (Anschutz, Cooper, Sako, etc), and others have 10/22's with aftermarket barrels and thumbhole stocks that relegate them to the standard class. The 10/22 guys can definitely out-score the Anschutz guys on occasion.

I like the 2 classes. It offers shooters the chance to shoot twice as much if they have a rifle that meets the hunter rules, and also provides for the use of heavier "Target" style rifles in the standard class.

The good shooter who shows up with a CZ American is not at a disadvantage when compared to me (not a very good shot) competing with my 1712.

I believe it was last season when Dave Imas declared that he would shoot an entire season with a stone stock Marlin model 60. I'm sure that he would have out-shot me on each and every occasion.

SteveM

[kevinbear]

When I started in 1981 it was not unusal for there to be 35-40 shooters at a smallbore match here in Colorado, now were lucky if 17 show up. There are several factors responsible for the decline beyond our control. However a good match director and a more friendly welcome to the new people that do show up that first time can really help. We have a new match director here in Denver that is really outstanding, and were starting to get few new faces. Keeping the equipment sensible would help as well.

[steve b.]

Sure,

I have seen the very same thing in rimfire br. the sporter class rifle is nothing like the original rifle, but that's not the point. you will find that the same guys with tricked out rifles are also the same guys shooting each event, and not just when they get around to it.

If you only come out to shoot if you'll win, then you're not really about the sport, you're only in it for the ego lift. So, if you are losing in silhouette because of your rifle (if you are actually that good), then get a better one.

I hear this way to much: well if I had this or that, i'd win. Well, maybe yes, maybe no. Still, if you want to win you will have to invest time and money, because other shooters who want to win already do. Don't put limits on others because you can't do/afford/dedicate time as others. Don't handicap me because of you.

Rimfire BR has tried numerous cost and rifle limiting events, hoping to keep the high-dollar customs out. And they all fail to go anywhere. The rimfire br events with the largest participation are the unlimited events. Avid shooters will make the investment, that's just how it goes.

Tighten up the rules in silhouette, and your numbers will drop, no doubt.

I won't even shoot the hunter class because of the trigger weight limit. If you can't safely handle a rifle with a light trigger, take up knitting. I can't see any reason for that rule. My hunting rifles don't have a 2lb trigger, this isn't a military rifle match, so I'm lost on that one.

But, if the NRA wants to keep the Hunter class "pure", then make some clear and careful rules discussing such. Be specific as to the rifle, barrel dimensions, ect. and you'll have the pure class (with fewer shooters).

If I were king, I would infact tighten up the Hunter class rules, but I'd also open up the Standard class rules. I really want to see a class where any shooter can participate with whatever rimfire rifle they own, something like an unlimited class. Set the hook there, and then maybe they will move towards a dedicated silhouette rifle. I used to let them shoot at our club, and just keep their scores seperate. I saw all kinds of rifles that were no kosher, but they were out there, ringing steel.

[kevinbear]

I have no problem with expanding the rules of the definition of the standard/custom rifle, heck I dont care if there isn't any rules. Just leave the hunting rifles alone.

[lone ringer]

Steve, I saw the sport get started from the beginning before Anschutz, Walther, etc. made silhouette rifles. That was 30 years ago and the sport is too far gone to make radical changes and not impact the shooters that still practice it.

The two rifle classes and scores are so similar that in my view there is no need for having two. That is why a lot of competitors have built a custom hunter and use it on both classes. The only thing in my opinion that two classes do is give somebody a second chance at winning something if they don't do well on one rifle class but most of the time the very same people win the trophies on both rifle classes.

You probably know that every year the silhouette committee get together for two days to discus rule changes. Very hard to do that in two days since they have to read some times around 100 competitors letters asking or suggesting a variety of things. The rules that govern our sport are not very clear at times and appear in many cases that they could be subjected to interpretation, which is not good depending on how hard nosed the Match Directors are.

It has been my observation that a lot of hard core silhouette shooters do not want changes to the rules and are still very upset at seeing custom hunting rifles in competition but another large influential group wanted to use the best equipment their money could buy and pushed the NRA hard enough that now its hard to tell one rifle class from the other by looking at the rifles on the racks.

I am willing to bet that if the NRA reversed itself and we went back to the kind of rifles we were using 8 years ago, half of the shooters that built custom Hunting rifles would quit the sport altogether. So I would just leave the sport alone since it has taken 30 years for it to have evolved into what it is today.

If you want a pure Hunter class I suggest you do what we did with Cowboy rifle silhouette. Start a new sport with inexpensive equipment and larger targets. Rifles with iron sights or with very low magnification scopes (no more than 4X). No custom stocks, barrels, triggers, etc. Use the 3/8 or 1/2 size targets the SB pistol and Hunter pistol shooters use.

Mind you with no expensive or target stuff like Redfield Olympic, International, etc sights. Keep it strictly similar to the equipment used in Cowboy as far as SB rifles are concerned but allow inexpensive bolt and single shot action rifles to participate. I believe that by keeping the cost of equipment low and making the targets easier to hit would tempt a lot of people that already own that type of equipment into trying rifle silhouette without having to compete against equipment used in Standard and Hunter classes.

If you do it in the way I propose you would not be antagonizing the people that are already shooting SB rifle Silhouette and on the other hand you would be introducing silhouette shooting to a new group of shooters. The trick of doing what I propose is in convincing the NRA to sanction the matches. And the reason I say that is because it took us about three years of insisting to them that the sport would be very popular and then after the NRA finally decided to sanction the Cowboy matches it took another five years for them to host the first Cowboy rifle Silhouette National Championships.

[kevinbear]

You been to a centerfire cowboy silhouette match lately, the guys arourd here are now using so-called vintage scopes,or target knobs on there apeture sights, and counting bullet marks on rams because the low recoiling rifles chambered in pistol cartridges won't knock them down. And there still not happy, they still want to push the envelope on every rule in the game.
My point is you could create another class for smallbore silhouette but everyone already shooting from master class and down would go buy a rifle for it and in six months would be bitching because the rules won't allow them to do this or that. Sound familiar.