Tubb Final Finish .22 LR Ammo DANGEROUS in my 10/22

[NewAZShooter]

Folks,

I decided to try out the Tubb bore polishing product listed in the subject line to see if it could do my rifles any good. I started out with my old Mossberg 46M bolt action. Fired all 100 rounds through the rifle without a missfire, FTF, or any other problem.

Did a thorough cleaning on the spot and test fired a box and a half of my usual Silhouex, which out of 30 brands is the one my rifle liked best, grouping about 2 1/2 inches on average prior to the bore-lapping ammo. No problems at all, but it did not improve my group size at all, which now actually averaged over 3 inches. Now it was a little gusty again today, so I figured that was the cause of the larger groups Did make the bore nice and shiny though, and might help keep it from fouling as advertised, but cannot say so yet.

Anyway, when I switched to shoot the next batch in my 10/22 with Clark Custom barrel, I ran into problems.

The directions say not to load rounds using the magazine, so I loaded a round in the chamber without a magazine in the rifle and fired downrange. The loud pop told me something was wrong. When I found the spent case, the case head was halfway separated from the rest of the case!

I thought maybe they accidently over powder-charged that case or something, so I loaded another round to try it again... and wish I hadn't! The second round blew the case head off the round entirely, sticking the remainder of the case in the breech and blowing bits of brass and hot gasses out through the magazine slot and down into my left forarm! Ouch! Not much damage and I am fine, but it scared me. It also pitted my safety glasses, so I was glad to have them on. Needless to say, that was the last round of the stuff I put anywhere near my 10/22.

It took a bit of force on a new bore brush to get the blown-up brass out of the chamber, The old brush I tried the first time just passed right through the case, leaving it firmly lodged.

I have written an e-mail to the Tubbs site about this issue. I do not know if the second batch of ammo is unsafely loaded, or if the tighter chamber in my Clark Custom barrel caused more friction and greater pressures, or what. But Please be warned about this product. It definitely causes unsafe pressures in my 10/22!

Be safe, everyone. And if you are shooting in any matches this weekend, good luck!

[lone ringer]

NewAZShooter, the problem with semi-auto rifles like yours is that if they have tight chambers and you are not shooting match ammo sometimes they firing pin hits the round when over sized rounds are not supported fully by the chamber. I had an AMT hunting rifle that was a tack driver with the most expensive ammo but could not trust to shoot the cheap stuff because twice it fired a round when not fully chambered, the second time I sent it back to the maker and asked them to open the chamber a bit more since I felt it was a dangerous situation especially since my son was shooting the rifle the second time it happened.

I have also used the Tubb bore polishing product but only on two bolt action rifles and noticed some of the rounds chambered really hard because the casings were full of the lapping compound. What I did is split the amount of bullets in half and used them in two different rifles to see if the process would help with their accuracy. It helped one but the other got worse. I can't blame the product since I did not follow their instructions and only used half the bullets on each one.

What I did on the one where accuracy got worse I fire lapped it again using JB bore cleaner. First I shoot no less than five groups to compare the before and after then I cleaned the barrel and put JB bore cleaner on some bullets and fired them five to ten at a time, cleaned the barrel again and shoot groups for comparison. The amount of bullets needed to fire lap the barrel depends on how rough the barrel is. I usually do less than 50 before I see improvement and then I stop.

I have only done this on three or four factory barrels to see if I could improve their accuracy and so far I have been able to see improvement. Make sure to use non embedding grinding compounds and clean the barrel well after fire lapping.

[NewAZShooter]

Thanks for the information, Lone Ringer. A representative from Tubb also got back to me via e-mail right away. They said something similar. FYI, the reply was:

"Thank you for letting us know. It is not a high pressure round, but rather the nature of the 10-22. The case is gripping the chamber wall as extraction starts and there is still pressure which the thin brass cannot support. It is no problem returning your kit to us for refund, give us a call monday and ask for brand."

Of course, they did not offer any explanation why the product does not warn against use in the 10/22. That would have been useful information to have before I bought the stuff and loaded it into my 10/22.

But FYI, basically, it sounds like this product is safe for bolt actions, just not the Ruger 10/22.

Good Shooting, All!

[Worker 11811]

If you're buying barrels from Clark Custom, I wouldn't put any kind of abrasive through it. Those barrels should already be lapped at the factory. It's one of the reasons they are so expensive.

There might be a reason to use polishing compound in your barrel. (e.g.: To remove stubborn fouling, etc.) But those are exceptions. Basically, by lapping the thing yourself, you might be UNDOING all the custom work you paid for.

[lone ringer]

Worker 11811, I have only done that to factory barrels that were not performing up to par and I really did not care if I ruined them. A lot of other shooters would have not wasted their time with them and would have replaced them with custom barrels except I am one that likes to experiment.

I know that for the most part we pay for what we get and with barrels is supposed to be the time the maker spends lapping the bores and making sure they are smooth.

[Worker 11811]

I have only done that to factory barrels that were not performing up to par

With that, I have to agree!

Clark barrels are guaranteed to shoot 1" or better at 100 yds.
I wouldn't fuss around with a 10/22 that shot that well.

Like I've said, I've seen guys use Kroil and rouge and similar stuff to get stubborn fouling out of the barrel groves and things like that. But this sort of guy often spends more time cleaning and polishing his bore than he does actually shooting the gun!

It doesn't matter if you are an extreme target shooter, a silhouette banger or a plinker. You bought a 10/22 because you want to put lead down range!
In any but a situation like you describe, lapping a gun is either a useless thing to do or it could even harm the gun. (As our original poster said in his opening message.)

[NewAZShooter]

Thanks for the insightful comments,

Please correct me if I am wrong. But it was my understanding that Clark guarantees their custom built/conversion rifles to shoot an inch, not their barrels alone. I think this because on their website if you look at barrels alone you see nothing about an accuracy guarantee, but if you look at the custom rifles link, there you see the guarantee.

After being given the advice to try out a bunch of ammo and find what my new barrel likes, I test fired 34 of the top brands of .22 LR ammo through mine and it has NEVER been able to put five shots into an inch at 100 yards. If I had thought it was guaranteed to shoot better, I'd have sent it back. I don't mean it can't shoot an inch for an average of 5 groups (the best of those averages are over 2 inches) I mean not one single time, not one 5-shot group under an inch at 100. Best ever was 1 3/8" with Lapua Master M. (I have detailed notes if anyone is interested in the ammo test results) And that was a one-time deal... on average they are over 2 inches.

And my bench technique is good enough to shoot under an inch almost every time with my 22-250. So I doubt it is due to improper bench shooting, as the lower recoil of a .22 LR should make it even easier to shoot well off the bags.

All I ever wanted out of that Clark barrel was to get it to shoot an inch or better. I was told that a decent silhouette rifle really should shoot 1 moa. I had a 10/22 so I thought, why not build it up and try to make it a 1 MOA rifle? If it shot that well, I wouldn't fuss around with it either. I am with you Worker on that point 100%. But a custom bull target barrel that can't average even 2 inches seems like it still needs work to me. Admittedly, I am new to this, but as you say, the custom rifle builders advertise an inch or better, Cooper guarantees 1/4 inch 5 shots at 50 or 55 yards, if memory serves, which is under 1 MOA.

About the comment "Basically, by lapping the thing yourself, you might be UNDOING all the custom work you paid for." I'll be bummed if that's true. Tubb specifically recommends this product for hand-lapped barrels as well as factory barrels. So it is not like they believe or advertise/warn that it can damage a quality barrel. The instructions say to start with the #3 compound instead of the #1 in a hand-lapped barrel.

If a guy can't follow the recommendations of the manufacturer, what other recommendations should he follow? Now, I don't mean to direct my frustrations at any of you here. On the contrary, I really appreciate all of your information and advice. I am however, venting a bit about a product that I am now learning is both dangerous and potentially damaging to a firearm and its accuracy when the specific instructions say nothing at all about either of those possibilities.

Sometimes I think maybe I should quit trying to make these old rifles shoot better and just go buy a new Anschutz and leave the rifle tinkering to the pros. But then the tinkering is part of the fun. In the past 3 months I have been interested in shooting I have learned to glass bed a bolt-action rifle, to mount a scope, to install, adjust and hone a new trigger/sear, to make a custom set of cocobolo pistol grips, and install new barrels, to refinish a rifle stock, to install and fit a new recoil pad, to install a new firing pin and extractor, to drill, tap and install overtravel adjustment screws in my triggers, to fully disassemble, clean and reassemble all of my firearms, and even to shoot a little! All of these projects were lots of fun and part of my experience and enjoyment I get from being a gun owner.

This bore polishing ammo was just another thing to tinker with. And then yesterday when something like my old beat-up re-finished glass bedded 1940's era Mossy lets me hit 34/60 in our local match at SB rifle sil. and 12/15 pigs when I have only been at this for 3 months... and I think it was all worth it for the accuracy result, not just the fun of each project. When that Mossy was given to me, it shot 4 to 6 inches at 100 yards. Now it takes out 12/15 pigs! That was some good, clean fun building up that old shooter.

I find silhouette shooting to be a fascinating and incredible hobby. It seems that for me, the tinkering is part of the fun. I wonder if anyone else feels this way as well, or if most of us are really more into it for the shooting?

I am getting into the challenge of HP Sil. partly because it means I get to learn and practice a whole new aspect of shooting this game -- reloading!

Great stuff. Thanks again everyone for all of your informative comments.

[Jason]

And my bench technique is good enough to shoot under an inch almost every time with my 22-250. So I doubt it is due to improper bench shooting, as the lower recoil of a .22 LR should make it even easier to shoot well off the bags.

Not to burst your bubble, but shooting a 1" 5-shot group off the bench with a 22lr is at least 10 times harder than it is with a decent 22-250. First all, the ballistic coefficient for the 22lr bullet is atrocious, which makes the wind do crazy things with it. It's also moving very slowly, which gives the wind lots more time to do all those crazy things. With you being from AZ, I have to assume that you have no small amount of wind to deal with there. A 10/22 also has LOTS of moving parts in it that move all around before the bullet leaves the muzzle, all of which can affect bullet point of impact. If you tinkered a bit replacing a few parts and could reliably produce a 10/22 that would shoot 5-shot groups less than 1" at 100yds then you could start touring teaching seminars to custom gunsmiths. I shot benchrest matches before I came to silhouette shooting, and I don't think there all that many people capable of reading the wind well enough to reliably shoot 1" or less groups at 100yds with a 22lr even with a full set of 5 of the best wind flags on the market in anything but dead calm conditions, and I'm talking about benchrest competitors here with a $250+ set of wind flags.

This bore polishing ammo was just another thing to tinker with. And then yesterday when something like my old beat-up re-finished glass bedded 1940's era Mossy lets me hit 34/60 in our local match at SB rifle sil. and 12/15 pigs when I have only been at this for 3 months... and I think it was all worth it for the accuracy result, not just the fun of each project. When that Mossy was given to me, it shot 4 to 6 inches at 100 yards. Now it takes out 12/15 pigs! That was some good, clean fun building up that old shooter.

Again, not to burst your bubble but a rifle that shoots 4" groups at 100yds would be able to do just what you're saying you did if the shooter were dead on. A pig is a pretty big blob of a target compared to the others and a rifle that shoots 4MOA, if sighted in well, could do that. I would have to measure it again to be sure, but I think the pig's shape and size combined with it being at 60m makes anything in a 5MOA or so group hit the pig if the point of aim is centered. I'm sure you've increased your rifle's accuracy by doing that stuff to it, but you don't mention group size here so it's hard to be sure how much you've improved it.

This great sport of ours puts much more emphasis on the shooter than on the gun. It helps if we have realistic expectations of our equipment and ourselves to keep us from getting frustrated and becoming discouraged.

[Worker 11811]

Please correct me if I am wrong. But it was my understanding that Clark guarantees their custom built/conversion rifles to shoot an inch, not their barrels alone

I think you are right. I was going by memory.
I think I burned off too many brain cells when I was in college. ;)

[NewAZShooter]

Thanks for the verification, Worker. And good points, Jason. I need realistic expectations getting into this new hobby. Some shooters told me 1 MOA was a good goal for accuracy in a smallbore sil. rifle. I went online and saw accuracy guarantees at Cooper and Clark, and thought those guys must have been about right. It seemed that an accurate rifle chambered in .22lr should shoot 1 MOA, based on these guarantees, and what I was hearing at the range. I couldn't be the first guy to ever set out to get 1 MOA out of a .22 rifle.

So I read up and found out that 1 MOA is roughly an inch at 100 yards, and went out to try and shoot that with my rifle... to find out if some combination of ammo choice and accessories to the rifle would make it do that. I thought I was just doing my homework and seeking a reasonable goal in accuracy. I have had three other shooters shoot groups with my rifle, and theirs are so similar to my own that between that and my sizes with the 22-250, I ruled out shooter error as the cause of my group size.

And Jason, you are right. I am certainly not some sort of good bench rest shooter. Not at all, as I have never even attempted that discipline and everyone I talk to says BR shooters deal with much smaller group sizes than we need to shoot silhouette. I was just trying to rule out any factors of inaccuracy that I could. I thought that if I could shoot one rifle inside an inch off the bench, I must have the requisite skill to do so with another rifle, provided it was as accurate. Now I see that is not so. The caliber and wind has a lot to do with it. Try to keep in mind I am new to this sport, and do not have a rich background in firearms and ballistics. We never had a firearm in the house growing up and I never shot one until I was in high school, and never really got serious about trying to learn this stuff until recently.

It sounds like the practice of actually shooting 1 MOA with a .22 lr is very difficult indeed, even if that rifle can shoot that accurate in ideal conditions. If a pig will be struck by any .22 centered on the target that can shoot 5 MOA, what does the turkey require? If it is possible to hit a perfect score with (for example) a 2 1/2 MOA rifle, that's great! I've already got 2 of those! I can save my money on an new Anschutz and spend it on HP ammo, or take my wife on a short vacation!

I did not mean to leave out the important information. Guess I got caught up in the original subject of my post. The Mossy grouped about 2 1/2" average of 5, 5-shot groups at 100 yards with Eley Silhouex after all the ammo testing and all the home-made gunsmithing done to it. And I shot those groups in the morning before it typically gets too breezy, again, on the sage advice of a seasoned shooter I met at the range who was kind enough to lend a little instruction. I don't claim that it was dead calm, just not windy like it gets here in the afternoons.

Before that, groups ranged from 4 to 6 inches to so large that the 50yd smallbore target I used at 100 did not even show all 5 rounds, and my notes just say "Huge, off paper". The point was how much fun it was doing all of the tinkering, which was a part of the new hobby for me, and how rewarding the improvement in accuracy was. That it was not just about putting bullets downrange for me. Even if it had not done any good for accuracy, I still learned a lot tinkering with these two rifles... and most importantly, I had fun doing it.

I don't consider myself to be any kind of riflesmith. This old 1940's Mossberg and 17 year old 10/22 were the perfect guinea pigs to tinker with. I bought some supplies like a bedding kit, read the instructions and got to work. I have seen some improvement, and that was fun! I am really enjoying my hobby. I am sure you can imagine that as a new shooter, knocking down those 12 pigs on Sunday felt great. Knowing that any 5MOA rifle could have done that doesn't take any of that enjoyment and feeling of accomplishment away at all. That was a first for me, hitting 12 of any of the animals, and as such it meant a lot, even if it is technically very easy to accomplish in terms of rifle accuracy.

And no worries, Jason. I'd rather have my bubble burst than continue laboring under an unrealistic expectation. If 1MOA is not needed, unrealistic, and incredibly difficult to shoot in any "normal" range conditions, that is great news! I might still continue to tinker, because it's so much fun, but if it's not important to have 1 MOA accuracy to hit the targets, I can forget about trying to put 5 shots in an inch at 100 now.

[Worker 11811]

Don't stop trying to shoot that inch. It is an admirable goal. But, when you try, do so with the understanding of just how difficult the goal really is. If you work up your gun, practice and wait for the right conditions, you MIGHT be able to do it or at least get close enough to satisfy yourself.

If you've got a gun that can shoot 2" at 100 yards you STILL have a damn good gun!

With a moderate amount of work, you should be able to shoot 5-shot groups like this (or better) with a 10/22 from 50 yards:

(Click the picture!)

Center bull is 1" in dia. Each successive ring is 1/4" smaller. The white center is 1/4".

If you can do that with your gun from the bench, you have all the gun you need to shoot silhouettes with.

Once you have done some shooting, you can decide if you want to trick-up your gun some more or buy a new one. But, right now, concentrate on shooting instead of tinkering.

...Unless you LIKE tinkering better than shooting! ;)

[Jason]

If a pig will be struck by any .22 centered on the target that can shoot 5 MOA, what does the turkey require? If it is possible to hit a perfect score with (for example) a 2 1/2 MOA rifle, that's great! I've already got 2 of those! I can save my money on an new Anschutz and spend it on HP ammo, or take my wife on a short vacation!

I am not sure exactly, but I would guess if the shooter were absolutely perfect that a 3MOA rifle would indeed enable a perfect score. The problem is that no shooter is perfect, especially offhand with no sling or shooting coat, so we all try to wring as much accuracy out of our rifles as we can. In benchrest, that is the single focus. In silhouette, we spend as much or more time trying to make the rifle help the shooter shoot well as actual accuracy from the rifle. That's the reason for all the talk of triggers and stock design. Those don't technically make the rifle any more accurate. They make the shooter able to shoot the rifle more accurately offhand.

The Mossy grouped about 2 1/2" average of 5, 5-shot groups at 100 yards with Eley Silhouex after all the ammo testing and all the home-made gunsmithing done to it.
...
Before that, groups ranged from 4 to 6 inches to so large that the 50yd smallbore target I used at 100 did not even show all 5 rounds, and my notes just say "Huge, off paper".

That's a major difference in accuracy and you should be proud of your work. There are many shooters who've been at this 20 years who haven't dove into doing basic smithing work themselves and felt the reward of such an improvement.

I am sure you can imagine that as a new shooter, knocking down those 12 pigs on Sunday felt great.

That's a great accomplishment for most anyone other than the master shooters, not just for new shooters.

And no worries, Jason. I'd rather have my bubble burst than continue laboring under an unrealistic expectation. If 1MOA is not needed, unrealistic, and incredibly difficult to shoot in any "normal" range conditions, that is great news! I might still continue to tinker, because it's so much fun, but if it's not important to have 1 MOA accuracy to hit the targets, I can forget about trying to put 5 shots in an inch at 100 now.

As has been said, keep trying to get all the accuracy you can out of your equipment. Also try to get equipment that fits you well and helps you shoot accurately. It takes equipment and a shooter to shoot good scores in silhouette. Our passion here just puts a lot more of the burden on the shooter part of that than most other shooting sports.

[shootingpaul]

I can see that tubs company seeing the multy milion dollar suit for your burns, offeres you the money back etc, hell with that ! they should give you free some of his rifles preferably autographed too !!
My 2 cents woth is that as far as i can judge this product is uselless, it created more harm than good, JB bore cleaner has been there for years, and one time when I talked to my gunsmith and told him that I would like to try it in my gun - he basicaly said that if i do it he wil never sell another of his barrels for me, they are hand lapped and as smooth as it goes.
this new stuff is another money grab and - you will see that sooner or later someone will sue for the burns etc and this "great " product will be pulled away