Difference in Standard and Hunter stocks?

[cedestech]

[ . My Pharr stock has a higher cheekpiece than my 54.18 stock. I don't think that the non-thumbhole 54 MS stock violates the letter of the rule.

The question needs to be addressed by the committee.

Dustin

Exactly. A RTS stock is actually (from the control area point of view) more advantageous then a 54MS/54.18 stock.

Not completely trying to stir poop but I never paid attention till I started looking for a high power stock. I have a flat top Wooster in the closet but can buy a pillared/inletted/ready to bolt on 54MS style stock from several manufactures for what it'll cost me to have the Wooster stock inletted and finished.

That is when I read the rules 3.1 and 3.1.1 and standard is a "traditional style" and hunter is a "hunting style".

Things change. It wasn't common to "hunt" with AR platform rifles 20 or even 10 years ago, now it's very common. Is a AR platform a traditional hunting rifle now?

The word "traditional" is very subjective....

[dustinflint]

Considering you refuse to leave Houston to shoot, I would just call the match director at whichever houston-based HP match you intend to shoot and see what his opinion is. Regardless, the question needs to be addressed. The description should be more specific. It seems to me that the 5418 stock is more of a "target" stock but I really don't care if a shooter's equipment fits the rules or not; this game is not about equipment. Although you can bet that some whiner is going to have a problem with it at a match.

Dustin

[cedestech]

Although you can bet that some whiner is going to have a problem with it at a match.

Dustin

And that is why I can't believe it hasn't been clarified. No rule change... just clarified....

I have plenty of things to keep me busy here in Houston... ;)

(and it's Celiac jack hole....)

[boats]

Stock fit is probably the most important factor offhand. More important than one barrel vs another, right behind triggers. Lot of shooters have trouble with Hunter stocks comb and buttplate relationship.

Write the committe they are the ones that started the Hunter vs Standard debates years ago, relaxing Hunter rules, to the detriment of the sport.

Boats

[Jerry G]

I was hunting deer with an AR back in the med 60s and have shot many deer with my "standard rifle"

I think the "hunter" part of the rules needs to be defined a lot better. Like someone said, hunting stocks have change quite a bit in the last 10 years so what is traditional? I'm thinking we need to go back to the old 'light rifle' with a 2 lb trigger. The rules need to be clarified to avoid a bunch of arguements. Lets not forget, its the Indian not the arrow.

[cedestech]

I Lets not forget, its the Indian not the arrow.

Exactly. For the sake of ease and I'm a cheap bastard I'd love to buy one of the 54MS style stocks offered by several manufatures and roll with it. By the "rules" it could be argued it's legal and performance wise there would be no real difference then a RTS stock. That is why I am asking and can't believe it hasn't been asked before....

What were the "light rifle" rules?

[fartsinpublic]

I hunt pigs with a AR platform, can I use a AR in the Hunter Class? Can't fathom I am the first person to ask this...

As a noob rookie, I'm curious, too.

After all, the NRA does say the AR is America's most popular sporting/hunting rifle... I've heard that argument, so perhaps by that token, the AR would be allowed in Hunter class if it meets weight, taper, etc. Why not? Seems that with a tapered barrel (and especially those "NY-compliant" stocks) they should pass muster.

I agree that the defining rules for rifles are a bit loose in some areas, open to subjective interpretation, and allow minimally-tapered barrel that goes from 0.920"-0.900" to shoot in Hunter (what's a few thou off the muzzle end, merely to say there's a taper, when say a 0.75" bull barrel would be bumped up.) Hmmm.

[Varn]

Gentlemen,
I regard to the original poster's question this has been covered in Ridgway PA at the Nationals. An HS Presision Anschutz style NON THUMBHOLE stock with a number 4 or 5 contour barrel was certified as a Hunter in HP. Since this has set precedence I feel the OP should proceed with his plan of stock purchase and if questioned he should refer them to Greg Conner and mention the rifle allowed at the Nationals. Mark Varner

[cedestech]

Gentlemen,
I regard to the original poster's question this has been covered in Ridgway PA at the Nationals. An HS Presision Anschutz style NON THUMBHOLE stock with a number 4 or 5 contour barrel was certified as a Hunter in HP. Since this has set precedence I feel the OP should proceed with his plan of stock purchase and if questioned he should refer them to Greg Conner and mention the rifle allowed at the Nationals. Mark Varner

THAT is what I was looking for.... Thanks!

[cedestech]

What were the "light rifle" rules before the current "hunter" rules?

[cslcAl]

I don't have any written rules, but basically, light rifle was the same as std rifle but with a 9 lb weight limit. There were some interesting looking stocks back then. Synthetic stocks were in their infancy stage.

That's why I refer to today's crop of high tech hunter stocked guns as "Light Rifle". Before I go off on a rant let me state right off that I do own three Nesika Bay stocks. I consider these and the Pharr or Wooster right on the edge of the envelope for hunter legal. Outside the envelope would be a stock with as straight of a grip like the Anschutz 54 style offered by McMillan, HS Precision, and others. I would be real reluctant to allow that HS stock to compete in Hunter Rifle at our club, even though it was allowed at Ridgway at the last nationals. The same thing happened back in 2000 with a Nesika Bay stock, and that's how we got to where we are today. Where does it stop? Light Rifle it is.

Also there was a previous thread on here about std and hunter rifles being too much alike. Who's fault is that? If you are that bored shooting the same gun for both classes, drag out a real deer hunting rifle and shoot that for hunter rifle class. But wait; that might be too difficult. I do agree with Dustin, it's not the equipment it's the shooter.

Now what's the bottom line on all this madness. It has made getting new shooters to try HP and SB a lot more difficult. Hunter rifle is the perfect venue to start someone out in, because most everyone has a deer or squirrel rifle he could start out with. But, when they come to a match and see all the custom hunter rifles and start asking questions about cost they don't come back. This is a huge problem and we created it.
I may have some photos of rifles from back in the 80's. I'll see if I can find them.

Disclaimer: The above comments are my opinions based on 30 plus years in the sport as a competitor, and match official in varying capacities.
Al Foust

[dustinflint]

I don't have any written rules, but basically, light rifle was the same as std rifle but with a 9 lb weight limit. There were some interesting looking stocks back then. Synthetic stocks were in their infancy stage.

That's why I refer to today's crop of high tech hunter stocked guns as "Light Rifle". Before I go off on a rant let me state right off that I do own three Nesika Bay stocks. I consider these and the Pharr or Wooster right on the edge of the envelope for hunter legal. Outside the envelope would be a stock with as straight of a grip like the Anschutz 54 style offered by McMillan, HS Precision, and others. I would be real reluctant to allow that HS stock to compete in Hunter Rifle at our club, even though it was allowed at Ridgway at the last nationals. The same thing happened back in 2000 with a Nesika Bay stock, and that's how we got to where we are today. Where does it stop? Light Rifle it is.

Also there was a previous thread on here about std and hunter rifles being too much alike. Who's fault is that? If you are that bored shooting the same gun for both classes, drag out a real deer hunting rifle and shoot that for hunter rifle class. But wait; that might be too difficult. I do agree with Dustin, it's not the equipment it's the shooter.

Now what's the bottom line on all this madness. It has made getting new shooters to try HP and SB a lot more difficult. Hunter rifle is the perfect venue to start someone out in, because most everyone has a deer or squirrel rifle he could start out with. But, when they come to a match and see all the custom hunter rifles and start asking questions about cost they don't come back. This is a huge problem and we created it.
I may have some photos of rifles from back in the 80's. I'll see if I can find them.

Disclaimer: The above comments are my opinions based on 30 plus years in the sport as a competitor, and match official in varying capacities.
Al Foust

It seems to me that the whole "Hunter" rifle thing is kinda dumb. Should have just had a "Smallbore Silhouette rifle" and a "Highpower Silhouette Rifle" with whichever restrictions the committee finds necessary. The game does not lend itself to improvement through equipment and buying another rifle for a "Hunter" rifle is more expense than just having one rifle across the board. They really dont make much difference. I have a 54:18 MSR Standard rifle that I shot with a factory 1712 Hunter rifle, then I built a Frankenhunter to shoot one rifle instead of two - I shoot about the same scores with all of them. It should just be one set of rules for one rifle or the hunter gun should be a factory rifle; BUT, that ship has sailed...

If the committee is dead set on having two rifles, then about the only move it could make at this point is to make the standard rifle an unlimited rifle (but that still wont really change the scores)

Dustin

[stsbuyer]

Dustin,

I fired my first high power silhouette match in October of 1977 and until several years after that there was no hunting rifle class. All that we had was standard rifle with the same rule that are used today. In 1978 I shoot the nationals in Raton NM and there were over 300 entries. Over the years they added light rifle and then changed it to hunting rifle. I can say from what I have seen if we had stayed with just standard rifle attendance would be better. I can also tell you that attendance went down when the rules were changed from a factory hunter rifle to what we shoot today. I think its a mute point we need shoot with the rules we have today. The more changes we make the few people I think will show up.

Paul

[cslcAl]

I didn't find any Light Rifle pictures, but I did come across this article in an old publication called Offhand. I was a publication put out by Bill Denny ( who still shoots also ).
You will see as this is from May 1984 that this debate has gone on for a long time, and will likely continue forever. Al Foust

Hunter Rifle001.pdf

Hunter Rifle002.pdf

Hunter Rifle003.pdf

[dustinflint]

I think its a mute point we need shoot with the rules we have today. The more changes we make the few people I think will show up.

I agree completely - but I think that we need to interpret the rules in such a way as to allow the rifle to compete if at all possible.

For instance, the ONLY way that a rifle will not make it into Hunter class in Winnsboro in two weeks is if it 1. has a thumbhole stock, 2. weighs more than 8.5 lbs., 3. has a trigger under 2 lbs. 4. has a scope that is OBVIOUSLY more than 1.5 inches above the top of the reciever. Otherwise, no one is being turned away at rifle certification. (Before anyone asks, I understand that a tapered barrel is required, but we are not going to have a device on hand to measure taper so if we can't prove it, you get to shoot it)

Now, does that keep someone from protesting the rifle and sending it to the jury? No, but it costs a non-refundable $25.00 to file a protest at the Southern Nationals (the $ goes to the target setters) and the protest is not heard until after all matches are finished for the day (so as not to delay the match or affect any shooter.) That usually keeps the protests to a minimum.

Dustin