Is a 357 Mag reliable on CLA rams?

[Jason]

In my search for the ideal CLAS rifle, I was originally focusing on cartridges like the 30-30 and possibly bigger bottleneck cartridges in order to be more reliable on those 200 meter rams. I had a couple folks suggest that I go with a 357 Mag with heavy bullets due to the lesser recoil, cheaper components, and the ability to also use the same rifle for pistol cartridge matches. To be honest, I dismissed the idea at first thinking that there's no way that a 357 Mag case pushing a bullet with decidedly poor aerodynamics would possibly be as reliable as I want on rams. I do see mention of 357 Mag being used for CLA here, but it seems to also be a "get one gun to use for two matches" theme. For those with experience using a 357 Mag on the 200 meter rams, how reliable is it? What specific model of rifle are you using and what's your ram load?

[Bob259]

In my search for the ideal CLAS rifle, I was originally focusing on cartridges like the 30-30 and possibly bigger bottleneck cartridges in order to be more reliable on those 200 meter rams. I had a couple folks suggest that I go with a 357 Mag with heavy bullets due to the lesser recoil, cheaper components, and the ability to also use the same rifle for pistol cartridge matches. To be honest, I dismissed the idea at first thinking that there's no way that a 357 Mag case pushing a bullet with decidedly poor aerodynamics would possibly be as reliable as I want on rams. I do see mention of 357 Mag being used for CLA here, but it seems to also be a "get one gun to use for two matches" theme. For those with experience using a 357 Mag on the 200 meter rams, how reliable is it? What specific model of rifle are you using and what's your ram load?

Jason, PPKNY tried to use his 357 for both and ended up with the 357 for PC and a 30-30 for CLA, just not enough reliability at knock downs at that distance he found.

[Tlee]

Jason -

It's not in the same classification as a 2000FPS 160-170gr 30-30 ram load, but I've had some limited luck with a 180gr, and later a 205gr, gas checked lead bullet taking them down.... But ONLY IF the wind wasn't on the backside of the ram!

Here's a whole thread where Luke, Glen, myself, and a few others posted our results/thoughts, and a couple recipes:

http://www.steelchickens.com/forums/vie ... f=7&t=5838

Since posting my results in that thread I have lost a few rams, primarily with the wind at the backside of the ram.

-Tim

[Jason]

Thanks, Tim. I saw that thread but it didn't seem to come to a conclusion. One of the things that I was wondering about was barrel twist and how fast of a twist would be required for the heaviest of the bullets out there that might work best on those CLA rams.

[Tlee]

Thanks, Tim. I saw that thread but it didn't seem to come to a conclusion. One of the things that I was wondering about was barrel twist and how fast of a twist would be required for the heaviest of the bullets out there that might work best on those CLA rams.

Jason -

I'm not sure of the twist in it, but my Marlin 1894 Cowboy with the 24" barrel seems to really like heavier bullets, especially when driving them fast(er).

FWIW, I didn't shoot the 357 in CLA at Raton last year, but my son's girlfriend did, and every ram she hit with a 205gr gas checked lead bullet fell with no problem. Center body hits fell a little slow, but they did fall. That was with 13.6gr of LilGun and a standard pistol primer. It ran just over 1600FPS measured 10feet from the muzzle, and the trajectory calculations say it's still moving 1200FPS at 200m. Shooting at a 5 shot/2 minute rate that load groups better than any other load I've shot in the gun. It grouped 3/4" at 100m for the 1st 3 shots, and the 4th/5th shots were about 1/2" to 3/4" right and low from the 1st 3 shots. It'll repeat that pattern consistently. Next best group I've had was a 180gr gas checked with the same 13.6gr of LilGun that groups 1" to 1-1/2" at 100m, depending on the conditions at an average speed of 1635FPS.

-Tim

PS - That same day she dropped every ram with the 357, I LEFT 2 STANDING, using a 170gr bullet running 2000FPS at the muzzle out of a 30-30, so I believe there's nothing that is 100% on rams.

[Jason]

Awesome info! I'm aware of the "nothing's 100% reliable" on the rams. We shoot those same rams at 500 meters with the scoped rifles and I've seen hard hits from heavy bonded core bullets ring some with low body hits.

[Tlee]

Awesome info! I'm aware of the "nothing's 100% reliable" on the rams. We shoot those same rams at 500 meters with the scoped rifles and I've seen hard hits from heavy bonded core bullets ring some with low body hits.

Yep, it's definitely NOT all about speed and bullet weight. IMHO, bullet construction is significant as well. At one local match I forgot to bring my usual RN 30-30 170gr ram loads and used some RN 150s instead... They all fell with authority, even the center mass hits! Then at the state match a few weeks later, I had a new 170gr FN bullet that left FIVE rams standing, including one with a hit in the horn that rang like a church bell.

- Tim

[PaulG]

I've posted this before, but this past winter at a BPCR silhouette match I was spotting and saw my shooter place a bullet from a .40-70 Sharps Straight in the breast of a chicken at 200 meters, and it never moved!

I would have a hard time believing it if I hadn't seen it clearly with my own eyes.

Paul

[jnyork]

There is simple a factor of luck in determining if a ram will fall. At a little club match last season, I hit a ram in the front knee with a .30-30 and a fast 125 grain Sierra bullet, it just stood there and I got some ribbing for using a pipsqueak load on the rams, even thought I toppled 6 more in the same relay. Anyway, a guy shooting a 45-70 came along right behind me and hit the same ram in exactly the same spot on the knee, ram just stood there. So much for the science of figuring out which load to use for rams. The same ram was hit a few more times by others and fell down just like it was supposed to, so there was nothing wrong with the target or how it was set. Go figure.

[Jason]

What was the load out of the 45/70? We had one guy at the match yesterday using a 45/70 but his loads were so slow that we could actually see them flying through the air. They did drop the rams, albeit some slowly, on the ones that I saw him hit. I didn't get to watch the whole time so I don't know if he rang any. There were a couple comments about him needing to make his trashcans fly a bit faster next time.

[jnyork]

What was the load out of the 45/70? We had one guy at the match yesterday using a 45/70 but his loads were so slow that we could actually see them flying through the air. They did drop the rams, albeit some slowly, on the ones that I saw him hit. I didn't get to watch the whole time so I don't know if he rang any. There were a couple comments about him needing to make his trashcans fly a bit faster next time.

Dont know exactly what load he was using, but he a "He-man" type of guy, never use a little powder if a little more will do, just watching him shoot the 45-70 makes my shoulder hurt.

[Another Dang 9]

To much gun or not enough...the cosmic question.

[ppkny]

When I was trying the 357 at the CLA animals it wasn't that they weren't going down it was the inconsistency of the bullet trajectory out at the 200 meter line. That's an awful lot to ask for for a 357 plus constantly moving the rear sight up and down for the distances was a pain.
With the 30-30 I use one setting on the sights (never have to move them) and just load with a couple grs. less or more and use a 150gr on the Chik/Pig and a 170 on the Turkey/Rams. This setup works great. I got the load data from some guys at Williamsport that have been shooting this system for years.
ppkny