I would like to submit a couple of proposed rule changes to the silhouette committee for consideration. Can anyone tell me the process by which to do that?

Thanks.

Dustin

Yea, tell us first and we'll vote on 'em here.

PS, someone will be along shortly to give you the right answer on who to submit those to...

Dustin,

All I could find in the rule book is a statement to the effect that "suggestions for rules changes may be submitted to the silhouette committe for consideration"....The program for the nationals this year lists the committee as follows, with no contact information:

Dr. David E. Bennett, III Chariman
Tom Gaines Vice Chairman
Gregory Connor Secretary
Aubrey Adcock
Kirk Bryan
Rob Drummond
Laura Goetsch
Wayne Harlow
Bill Miller
Lee O'Neil
Joe Scott
Hal Simpkins
Hugh Wilson

I would imagine that you could draw up your proposal and submit it to the following address:

National Rifle Association
Silhouette Department
11250 Waples Mill Road
Fairfax, VA 22030-9400

Additionally, at the Nationals there will be a competitors meeting. You can bring proposals to that venue also.

Kitty

Thanks for the input guys:

mordecai wrote:Yea, tell us first and we'll vote on 'em here.

I will suggest a rule change that allows for an aftermarket stock on Sporter air rifles (because I have an aftermarket stock that is almost identical to the factory one and I don't want to have to buy a factory one to be within the rules). I will also propose a new "High Master" classification to give shooters something else to shoot for and to give guys that shoot master scores a classification to compete in (because people who shoot 34s and 35s aren't beating Cathy Winstead and Co. when they shoot 38s and 39s)

These are the specific rule changes that I will propose - I welcome anyone's suggestions, criticism, proposals, etc.

Rule 3.3(b) currently states:

Sporter Air Rifle: Any unaltered factory sporter air rifle that is or was a catalogue item, readily available
over the counter to the general public, weighing no more than 11 pounds, with scope and mounts. Rifles
utilizing pre-charged systems of any kind other than 12.0 gram disposable C02 units are prohibited.

I suggest the following:

Rule 3.3(b) Sporter Air Rifle: Any factory sporter air rifle that is or was a catalog item, readily available
over the counter to the general public, weighing no more than 11 pounds, with scope and mounts. Rifles
utilizing pre-charged systems of any kind other than 12.0 gram disposable C02 units are prohibited. Stocks
may be aftermarket but must be a sporter-style stock; thumbhole and target-style stocks are not permitted.
Internals such as springs and seals may be interchanged. The the rifle may be "tuned" but must remain safe to
operate and must not damage targets.

Rule 3.1.3(f) sets forth the classification for the cowboy guns and should be removed because it repeats Rule 19.15(f).

Rule 19.15(a) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(a) High Power Rifle/Target Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor):
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 to 40
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 31
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 to 19
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 12

I suggest the following:

(a) High Power Rifle/Target Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor):
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 to 35
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 31
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 to 19
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 12

Rule 19.15(b) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(b) High Power Hunting Rifle/Sporter Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor) High Power Semi Automatic Military Rifle:
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 to 40
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 to 28
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 to 22
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 to 16
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 10

I suggest the following:

(b) High Power Hunting Rifle/Sporter Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor) High Power Semi Automatic Military Rifle:
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 33 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 to 32
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 23 to 28
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 to 22
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 to 16
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 10

Rule 19.15(c) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(c) Black Powder Cartridge Rifle/Scoped Black Powder Cartridge Rifle:
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 to 40
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 30
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 to 20
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 15

I suggest the following:

(c) Black Powder Cartridge Rifle/Scoped Black Powder Cartridge Rifle:
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31 to 34
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 30
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16 to 20
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 15

Rule 19.15(d) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(d) Small bore Rifle/Open Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor):
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 to 40
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 to 33
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 to 27
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 20
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

I suggest the following:

(d) Small bore Rifle/Open Air Rifle (Indoor and Outdoor):
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 37 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34 to 36
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28 to 33
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21 to 27
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 20
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

Rule 19.15(e) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(e) Smallbore Hunting Rifle:
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 to 35
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 31
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 19
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

I suggest the following:

(e) Smallbore Hunting Rifle:
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 32 to 35
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26 to 31
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 to 25
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 19
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

Rule 19.15(f) currently states:

19.15 Individual Classification Scores - 40-shot matches

(f) Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle/Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle/Smallbore
Cowboy Silhouette Rifle:
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 to 40
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 to 34
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 to 28
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 21
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

I suggest the following:

(f) Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle/Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle/Smallbore
Cowboy Silhouette Rifle:
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38 to 40
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 35 to 37
AAA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29 to 34
AA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22 to 28
A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15 to 21
B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 to 14

Thoughts???

Dustin

Wow, no pussyfooting around, you're going straight for gold, arn'tcha?

I don't shoot air rifle so I'll stay out of that, but I would certainly support a high master class. As it stands, once a person squeaks into Master class they are in for a long wait before they do and win'n again. The top Masters in the USA right now are turning in such impressive scores (consistently) that I agree with creating a High Master class. Those same top Masters will still win the overall awards but at least it gives the mere mortals that are in Master class a chance to see the podium from time to time.

Dustin,

Looks good to me. IPSC/USPSA did something similar. They created a "Grand Master" class. So what you have proposed is not without precedent.

I may have a suggestion for a similar change for match rifle class. I will put it together and send it to you in a day or so.

-Pat-

Dustin,

I applaud forward thinking, don't necessarily agree with all your proposed changes....don't have too, we can agree to disagree, great think about America....I will offer this, from one who has been around a while and been to many competitors meetings....the rules committee has not been particularly open to any widespread rule changes for quite some while.....It's been a cat and mouse game for years, with the rules committee trying to maintain some semblance of order while dreamers and smiths dream and build to the limit of the rules and beyond, a lot like NASCAR...We've seen the chin gun come because the rules didn't prohibit it and go when the rules banned it, some liked it some did not...It's likely the rules committee's hesitancy to make changes has been a result of the discord that has infected our shooting sports because one group didn't like the other group and there are purists and forward thinkers and perhaps the rules haven't been enforced consistantly over the years (reference last year's battle at the cowboy lever gun nationals over fiber optic sights)....I encourage you to fight for change, but don't be discouraged if it's slow in coming. Our sport needs young shooters that are not afraid to speak up and are persistant enough to stick around long enough to see change happen...

As far as a Uber Master Class, it already shakes itself out that way now with 1st 2nd and 3rd open and 1st 2nd and so on and so forth Master....Granted, some shooters are in a class that seems to separate themselves from the rest of the shooting world, and Cathy W-S has seemed almost unbeatable this year, but she is also one of the hardest working shooters there has ever been, having smack worn out more good rifles than most will ever own....with every one of the "Uber Masters" there seems to be a direct link between hard work and accomplishment...to "reward" that hard work by penning them up in a 3 or 4 target from perfect class by themselves would seem to punish hard work rather that reward it....YMMV, just my 2 cents worth FWIW.

Kitty

Kitty,

Thanks for your thoughts. I am certainly not married to these changes and it wont bother me one bit if none are adopted, I just think those are changes that would be good for the game. I welcome other points of view.

The High Master category is certainly not meant to punish the best shooters, but to distinguish them and give them the recognition they deserve. I just used Cathy as an example but there are lots of very hard working and talented shooters that show up to big matches to win and can shoot a perfect score if things work out. I think that those great shooters should have their own category and I hope to be in that category very soon.

I also think that a shooter that regularly scores in the upper 30s is on a different level than the shooter who was able to shoot three 34s over the last two years and made it into master class. It just seems that there is room for another class.

I think the silhouette rules are pretty good as they are and we could do just fine leaving them alone. However, small changes and moving forward is usually a good thing.

Dustin

While my opinion doesn't count... here are my random thoughts
Another class... I can go along with it, but the NRA has been complaining about award costs already and they have taken away from the new shooters meaningful awards that we need for the new shooters to keep them coming. An envelope with NRA award points and your name hand written on it for a new young shooter means nothing, they need a trophy to show their friends and keep. We've offered suggestions such as a ‘diploma’ or ‘award’ type paper that could be customized on a printer for the winners so they have at least something to hang on their wall and show what they achieved (at less than $0.20 a page pre printed format) that has fallen of deaf ears as they say they are too busy (but the names are already in their program), so asking for an additional class may fall on the same deaf ears.

Air RIfle.... I believe, like in Lever Gun, keeping air rifle rules simple and not starting an aftermarket stock or 'tuning' race is mandatory in containing costs to the shooters and keeping it simple. Good air rifles are expensive enough already that we don't need to open the rules up to start an aftermarket boom and exponential cost race. However, to ensure the Target Class truly stays 'Target' I belive the rules need to be clearer on the type of rifle and maximum FPS that can be used in Target class needs to be written into the 'Target Rifle' section to remove any doubt.

Just my 2 cents....

Dustin,
While I admire your enthusiasm there are some things that I can agree and disagree with you on. One you need to shoot in more matches away from your local area to start to understand the dynamics of the organization. Two, you need to read and reread the rules and realize the problems you caused at the air rifle match, so in short run some significant matches before being so adamant about changes.
I agree that we have professionals shooting in the sport and it is difficult to win against them, and it is even more discouraging to see them constantly winning all top prizes then, selling them on the web the following week.
Yes, I too have shot several 38's and even beat Cathy more than once in indvidual matches, but as my age catches up I am not able to keep up with the younger eyes and coordination, that is part of life.

We need to work on providing more awards for the lower classes, encouraging the older experienced shooters to mentor new shooters. Personally I don't care about more trophies (dust collectors) but a mug or something that I can use is appreciated, but I do know that the awards are important for the classes below master.
The point of a Grand or High master class has been bought up several times over the years and fallen on deaf ears. The point of not letting a person win both class and catagory awards has changed over the years, and I have been on a push to change it back to one or the other, but not both to the same person in the same match.

As for change to accept aftermarket stocks on air rifles, it will probably not go anywhere as except for a few small pockets in the country, air rifle is not shot a lot, in fact there are no air rifle nationals for silhouette. One of the major sore points between David McLemore and Greg Conner....a bit of history, Greg stated if we could get 70 shooters to a state or regional air rifle match he would allow that club to host an air rifle nationals the next year. This was accomplished at Winnsboro, and the follow year we were preparing for the first air rifle nationals, and Greg Conner decided only a few months before to cut it from the plans and budget, in shich there were no costs to the NRA budget for it as David and crew had already worked out the finances on it.

So your call to Greg Conner to have him tell the chief range officer to let you shoot an aftermarket stock in the match after the jury had already ruled it illegal based on the current rules, informed you of the process for filing a protest to the NRA protest committee was uncalled for, created a tremendous string of protests to me and was as you found out could not be done by the rules. I am now in the process of filing a complaint to the NRA for having a director that apparently feels that he alone can override a jury decision in a match.
Mary

Additionally, at the Nationals there will be a competitors meeting. You can bring proposals to that venue also.

You gotta be kidding kitty. Thoes meetings are a big waste of time for all involved.

Jerry, some of us are smart enough to go shower and find good food!

Innocent

Bob, the issue with awards for another class is something that I never thought of, that's a very good point. I suppose that will be a good reason for the NRA committee to shut down the proposal if they don't like it.

Bob259 wrote: Air RIfle.... I believe, like in Lever Gun, keeping air rifle rules simple and not starting an aftermarket stock or 'tuning' race is mandatory in containing costs to the shooters and keeping it simple. Good air rifles are expensive enough already that we don't need to open the rules up to start an aftermarket boom and exponential cost race.

I'm certainly not trying to start an aftermarket stock or tuning race. From what I can see, 95% of the sporter rifles on the line have been "tuned" in some way. That violates the letter of the rule, because it modifies the rifle, but it seems to be something that everyone is willing to overlook (that's why I put the 'tuning' part in the proposed rule) But, if you show up with an aftermarket stock that is substantially the same as a factory stock, your gun will be disqualified.

Changing the stock on a rifle is not always about making it better, it can be about making the gun fit a shooter. Take my little nephew, for example. He has a light weight CZ .22 rifle that he can shoot the heck out of but he cant shoot a TX200 because it's too heavy. If we could change the stock to a light weight stock, he could hold the gun and we'd have another young shooter on the line. The way the rule is now, he is excluded. One shooter I know has a rifle that is legal for sporter class but it has an aftermarket stock BECAUSE HE'S LEFT HANDED and the factory stock comes only in right hand! As it is now, his gun is illegal because it has an aftermarket stock but he cant shoot the factory stock because he is left handed. Luckily, this shooter has enough money to be able to buy a different rifle so that he can shoot, but if he only could afford the gun that he has, he'd be excluded because he is left handed. That is ridiculous.

The stock that comes on a TX200 is very nice (like the stocks on most nice airguns). A shooter is not going to get an advantage with an aftermarket stock under the rule I proposed. A shooter can, under the proposed rule, make a change to allow him or her to shoot if that person happens to be someone who can't effectively shoot the factory stock.

Bob259 wrote: However, to ensure the Target Class truly stays 'Target' I belive the rules need to be clearer on the type of rifle and maximum FPS that can be used in Target class needs to be written into the 'Target Rifle' section to remove any doubt.

I agree with that; do you have a proposed rule on the Target gun?

Dustin

dustinflint,
I commend you on your effort to initiate change but I hope you're in for the long haul and not just writing letters becasue of your bad experieince at the Southern Nationals. Real change will take a lot of effort and if you are serious we will continue to see some progress. If we don't continue to hear about your fight for rules change I'll draw my own conclusions.
ppkny