Tried 4 different subsonic ammos in my CZ 452 today...

22 Long Rifle ammo is finicky. Tell us all about it here.
LH2
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: AZ

Tried 4 different subsonic ammos in my CZ 452 today...

Post by LH2 »

The ammos I tried were:

1) Federal Premium Gold Medal 711B
2) Aguila Super Extra
3) Eley Target Rifle
4) SK Standard Plus

At 50 yards the best performer was Federal, just edging out SK and Eley. Aguila wasn't impressive at any range.

At 100 yards the Aguila was still the worst. I ran out of Federal so didn't get to try it at 100. Maybe I just had a great batch at 50 yards.

My two best groups at 100 yards were with Eley, but SK was right behind it, just seemed to spread out more.

I've got another 200 rounds of Aguila that'll get demoted to plinking ammo in my semiauto, and I'm curious to try Federal at 100 yards. I've fired 200 rounds of the SK and will say it is very quiet and consistent, fliers are rare.

I need to spend more time at 100 yards trying to see if my CZ prefers the Federal, Eley or SK. I also have some RWS Target Rifle, Fiocchi Super Match and CCI Standard that I haven't tried yet but will soon.

I'm new to this rimfire ammo testing, but it amazes me how different the ammo is from brand to brand.
User avatar
Innocent
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 5675
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:28 am
Location: Merritt Island

Post by Innocent »

It will also differ lot to lot.
Innocent
Proud member of SNOSS. I earned mine!
Proud member of IBDF Club...

Guilty until proven Innocent by the press.
LH2
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: AZ

Post by LH2 »

Went back out to the range today and put another 375 rounds through my CZ. :twisted:

Bought some more Federal 711B so I could try it at 100 yards, tried some more Eley Target Rifle and bought some Eley Club Xtra. Also used up 100 rounds each of CCI Standard Velocity and RWS Target Rifle that I had.

The Federal didn't hold up so well at 100 yards, it hopped around quite a bit.

Both types of Eley work really well in my CZ. As good, or better than SK standard plus. Orange box maybe slightly better than yellow box.

CCI Standard Velocity was OK, real promising for a few shots than a crazy flyer. If I was on a budget I guess I'd go with this stuff.

RWS Target Rifle was great. I just ordered 100 rounds on a whim and wish I had a brick of it. Same POI as SK and Eley but just seemed more consistent than either and yielded my best groups.
User avatar
BlauBear
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:43 am
Location: Fort Smith, AR

Post by BlauBear »

Eley Practice 100 has worked really well in my CZ American, Silhouette and Varmint, and Remington 504. Best of all has been the Eley Silhouex, but at $50 a brick I reserve that for matches.
"If the America people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity" - TJ
User avatar
silhouette13
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:08 pm
Location: Amherst NH

Post by silhouette13 »

hey lh2, just for curiousity sake what procedure did you use to clean/season your barrel between ammos? i bore snake then shoot 20-25 into the sand before trying for group. often there is a lube incompatability issue that will give you a falsly large group til it settles down.my cz loves fed as well as paper box cci the plastic box stuff is crap out of my rig.

regards

dave
Pete A.
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:42 am
Location: Houston

Post by Pete A. »

My take on ammo testing for Smallbore Shilouette is go first to 100m. If an ammo holds up here then all will be ok. Many different brands do great at 50yds/m then fall apart at 100m.

My totally biased opinion is that between each ammo type the rifle barrel needs to fully cleaned with all the typical cautions when cleaning. Or easier is to just shoot many rounds of the new 'stuff' before deciding. Kind of a short 'curing' period.

My guns have typically shot much larger groups when first starting on the ammo but then 'come around' or 'settle' in. Just shot a box of the Rem/Ely Club Extra in my Kimber HS that had lots of Fed 711b through it. First four 5 shot groups were pretty lousy, then they just stated coming together. Beautiful groups after that. Probably be my ammo of choice for that 'big" match (wish the stuff was cheaper as my Kimber & Cooper both love it).

Then when going back to 711b's same thing; 3-4 poor groups and 5th on were like normal (1"+/- @ 100m).

So now when trying new ammo I shoot 20-30 rounds of the new 'stuff' quick without even trying for groups. or get quick zero and use these to work on the Rams while "curing".

Pete A.
edgehit
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 611
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:24 pm

Post by edgehit »

Along the lines of changing ammo and letting the barrel lube settle in, I shoot Eley Practice in my 1712 and for grins tried some Federal Champion. I shot groups immediately at 100m and I got some impressive groups for cheap stuff until the third group. Seems that the greasy Eley lube was good for the dry Champion bullet. After the third group, they started opening up. The results weren't good enough to spend the time lubing cheap Federal Champion, but the results were interesting enough.
- Joe
User avatar
BlauBear
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 2734
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:43 am
Location: Fort Smith, AR

Post by BlauBear »

Federal 711B is more accurate in my 1712 than Eley Practice and costs less. However, I think 711B is also prone to lead fouling that is difficult to clean out while the Eley just keeps seasoning. Just one more cost of the game I guess.
"If the America people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity" - TJ
NewAZShooter
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:59 pm
Location: Central Arizona

Post by NewAZShooter »

I only had 5 to 25 rounds of each brand left from my last series of ammo tests, but I went out and shot some groups in my "new" cz 452 silo yesterday. Not enough of each to allow for seasoning the barrel between, so I just shot what I had without any cleaning, just to see if I'd get any interesting preliminary results.

I had 25 brands on hand, and a nice calm morning, so I set up at the 60m pig line first and fired one or two 5-shot groups with each. A few brands I had 25 rounds left, so I shot 3 or 4 groups and averaged them together. Then I pulled targets and shot the top performing 60m brands at 100m until I ran out of each. But some of these I only had one group in an unseasoned barrel. Still preliminary results are exciting, considering my other rifles shoot 2" or larger at 100m.

The CZ shot one group just over an inch at 100m with Lapua Midas M, and one group at 60m was .423 with Match EPS. Those were the smallest of the day. I'll need to buy more ammo and do a full, cleaning, seasoning and several group average test to know for sure. But right off it shot Eley Match EPS, Eley Practice 100, Eley Target Pistol, Eley Biathalon EPS, Lapua Midas M & L, and RWS R100 pretty well. I shot 1 to 3 different 5-shot groups at 100m with these top performers. All averaged together they shot 1.642" groups at 100m.

So I think I'm going to find that the CZ shoots somewhere between 1.25 and 1.5" averages at 100m with the best ammo. Maybe now even the fliers will go into animal!

Oh, one more thing I learned yesterday. After a 5-10MPH wind picked up in the late morning those 1.5 averages grew to 2.5+. Just a slight breeze added over an inch at 100m. It doesn't take much wind to make the groups grow. Ideally an indoor range would be best for ammo testing, but I don't know of any in the area that go to 100m.

The trigger on this baby has got just a bit of creep before it breaks at just over 2lbs. And I shot the tests with a 4-16X 50mm Barska scope after testing it to make sure it repeats, which it does. My thanks to Steve (sobrbiker) for selling me a very nice shooting iron.
~JW

Love it when those chickens fly!

CZ 452 Silhouette
Ruger 10/22 W/ Clark Custom Barrel, B&C Anschutz Style Stock
Interarms Mark X 30.06
Browning BuckMark .22LR
T/C .22 LR, .22 Hornet
Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag
User avatar
Jim Beckley
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Cave Creek, Arizona

Post by Jim Beckley »

When I had a Kimber HS, it would shoot the Lapua Subsonic, it used to come in a pink box and then Lapua changed the color on the box to a greenish color. When they changed the color of the box they must have changed something in the load, because it went to heck in my rifle. Also when the box color changed so did the price by the way!
User avatar
Dee
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1131
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:39 am
Location: Black Hawk Colorado

Post by Dee »

NewAZShooter- Do you notice any POI changes when changing between one magnification and another with the Barska scope? I have the 6.5-20x50 Target Dot Barska and it appears to repeat fine so far, but I noticed it seemed to shift the POI when I would go back and forth with the magnification.

Now I just leave it set @ 20x all the time so I don't have to worry about it. Was going to get a T24 but spent my money on a great deal I found for a .22 Rapid Fire Target Pistol. The Barska seems to be holding up well now after 6 months of use and its pretty clear so it will have to do until I get more funds for the T24 again in a few months.

What did you think of the Rem Target ammo? I got 2 boxes of it and by far it was the worse .22 ammo I have ever shot. Over the chrony it had swings of up to 300 fps from one shot to the next, no consistency at all, it was so bad you could tell with your ear it was way off thats when I chronied it. They have a lot of nerve calling that target ammo. Bulk Fed. AutoMatch is like Tenex compared to that ammo IMO. The Fed. AutoMatch while a little hot shoots very well in my CZ silo as well.

Dee
Trespassers will be shot.
Survivors will be shot again!
NewAZShooter
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:59 pm
Location: Central Arizona

Post by NewAZShooter »

Dee,

To be honest, I set my scope to the highest power when I put it on the rifle and I never move it off of 16X, so I can't say whether it would have the same effect yours did of changing POI when you change zoom settings.

I read that the lesser scopes can do that, so I always shoot all of mine at the same magnification sighting in and at the match. My other Barska 8-32 I leave at 28X. These are the "Excavator" models with target turrets and the 11 intensity settings illuminated red dot option. I tested them both to make sure they repeat and they were fine, but I did not change the zoom settings. A steal at the price, but the IR adds a few ounces to the weight of them.

I have not gotten my hands on many of the remington types of ammo since my supplier does not stock them. I did try out the .22 subsonic and Remington Club Extra in my CZ the other day, and they grouped 1.464" and 1.023" for two five-shot groups averaged at 60 meters which was not good enough to make the first cut.

A few other surprises I found in that test... Eley Silhouex, Lapua Master M and Wolf M/T, which shoot well in most of my other .22s both were downright lousy! This whole phenomenon of a barreled action "liking" certain brands of ammo certainly is interesting.
~JW

Love it when those chickens fly!

CZ 452 Silhouette
Ruger 10/22 W/ Clark Custom Barrel, B&C Anschutz Style Stock
Interarms Mark X 30.06
Browning BuckMark .22LR
T/C .22 LR, .22 Hornet
Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag
pistolero45
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: Columbia, Missouri

Post by pistolero45 »

I find that temperature plays a big part in ammo accuracy. For example, my Hunter rifle likes both SK Standard Plus and Eley SilhoueX. Most of the time I shoot the SK, but if the temperature is below 50 degrees the Eley SilhoueX is more accurate.

Just for fun, keep track of the temperature when you do your ammo testing. I think you will find a difference.

Also, when switching ammo, it is really important to season a barrel with 10 or more shots prior to shooting a group for accuracy. I just fire those into the backstop.

I do all my testing at 100 meters. Lots of ammo will group okay out to pig distances, then fall apart at the turkeys and rams.

If you do a lot of ammo testing you will end up with partial boxes of stuff you have no more use for. I like to spend a whole morning at the range burning that ammo up on chicken practice. In fact, that is what I plan to do today.

Testing ammo is fun. Almost as much fun as playing the game!
Mark
NewAZShooter
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:59 pm
Location: Central Arizona

Post by NewAZShooter »

Yes, I believe that about temperature changes affecting the accuracy. It certainly affects POI. In June I shot my last match for several months in ~100 degree weather, then I went out of state for 3 months of work and in October we were gone to Ecuador for a month, so I didn't get around to shooting in another match until November. By then it was 50 degrees out and both of my rifles were hitting roughly an inch and a half lower than they did in the summer. I asked around at the line and found that others had the same result, changin 1 to 2 moa up from their "summer settings" to get back to center.

I keep all of my targets and mark them with all the relevant data. It's part of the fun to look back and compare notes. I agree ammo testing is fun stuff. I enjoy shooting off the bench. In fact, if my wife and I had wandered onto the benchrest range during the spring shooters expo at Ben Avery, I might be a bench rest shooter today. The pistol silhouette guys from a local club Paloma Ferrea got ahold of us, and we never made it to the rest of the expo. Now I'm a silhouette shooter. But if I knew anyone shooting benchrest, I would give that a try too, just for fun. The cost of equipment would probably keep me away from it, but I do like bench shooting and watching the range conditions and wing flags.

I actually think lots of other disciplines would be fun, and have thought about attending a 100 yd smallbore prone match here in Phoenix. Just never have made it out there yet.

Yeah, those partial boxes would make good chicken practice ammo. But since I just bought the CZ, I had to try out those last remaining rounds in each box in the CZ. Once I get some more ammo and have a chance to do a more thorough testing of ammo with seasoning, cleaning, etc. I'll post any interesting results.
~JW

Love it when those chickens fly!

CZ 452 Silhouette
Ruger 10/22 W/ Clark Custom Barrel, B&C Anschutz Style Stock
Interarms Mark X 30.06
Browning BuckMark .22LR
T/C .22 LR, .22 Hornet
Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag
pistolero45
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 226
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:15 pm
Location: Columbia, Missouri

Post by pistolero45 »

When testing ammo I write everything down in a notebook. This has proved valuable when a couple years pass and a question pops into your brain.

I just got home from shooting up the last of my CCI Subsonic, which tested horribly in both of my rifles last year. But today it was very windy (19 mph with gusts up to 27 mph) and I was shooting paper chicken targets at 50 yards. Match grade accuracy was of no concern. I think if I had to shoot in a wind like that during a real match I could have managed a B class score! :)

Maybe we should start a discussion about the value of practicing in windy conditions. I really do think such practice has merit.
Mark
Post Reply