Changing Zero

Jerry G · Post by **Jerry G** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:14 am

Shorty, it looks like we are talking about two different things.

You are correct, if I clamp a gun in a vice and center it on a target, nothing will move. If I fire the gun every hour for the complete day it should shoot in the same place except for the changing wind.

The point that you are missing is what you think you see will change as the light, heat, and wind change.

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:08 pm

No, we're talking about the same thing. And I'm telling you, the light changing isn't going to change where I think the target is. Notice I didn't say anything about firing the gun, as changing temp and humidity, etc, is going to change POI. I said to look through the scope every hour. And you'll notice your POA will remain unchanged, even though the light will change drastically throughout the day.

Only things that affect trajectory will change POI, and light doesn't affect trajectory, period.

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:23 pm

And I thought women could be hard headed and stubborn.

Shorty, there is alot of information available about light and how it reacts....and even a fair amount information about how the eyes see and the brain responds to things visually. Something about optical illusions, and even if you feel that experience has nothing to do with a persons ability then keep shootin' and enjoy it.

Mary

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:35 pm

I don't know what you do at your range, but at ours we don't have any Escher stuff on our animals. They're plain white.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:42 pm

Stubbornness knows no gender as we well know, Mary.....Trying to convince Shorty to be a little more open minded about the effects of ambient light and the value of a wide variety of experience to a shooter reminds me of kicking the proverbial dead mule....Always works out the same...you end up frustrated and the mule still won't move....Shoot on Shorty and have fun....but please don't ask me to spot for you if we ever by chance get to shoot together..

Kitty

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:50 pm

I rarely have used a spotter anyway, and typically I can see where my shots go as I'm busy following through.

While you've got stubbornness and open-mindedness on the brain, how about thinking about why you're so sure you're not wrong? You couldn't possibly take the time to actually think about the situation under discussion, now, could you?

Again, it's a freakin' animal sitting on a pedestal. It's not an Escher creation.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:56 pm

I rarely have used a spotter anyway

Somehow I thought so...

Kitty

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:02 pm

By the way, Escher seemed to understand how light could produce distortions in what you see....

Third Escher Secret: Use lens distortion.

A famous drawing of Escher's is his self-portrait, which is drawn using a reflection in a polished metallic ball. From this and other drawings, it is clear that Escher used distortions of this kind to produce drawings. What he probably did was to produce a drawing and then project it thru a lens or reflect it from a curved surface onto a paper, copying the distortion by means of light projection (magic lantern).

Quote from "The Secrets of Escher Revealed" by John Bryant

Kitty

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:10 pm

kicking the proverbial dead mule....

Commander Kitty, this is much like punching something or someone, it hurts the hand as well....
You've seen my ability to pick up things with my feet, I certainly prefer to use my feet constructively, and not hurt them. Thanks, but I think I'll stick to spottin' for some of the more receptive and open minded shooters and continue picking up coins or other objects with my toes.

Innocent Mary

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:18 pm

Because we're all busy shooting, more than anything. The only time I had a spotter for whole matches was in Provincials this summer, when I won my class in hunter and took second in standard. I honestly don't know if having a spotter helped, since I saw the same thing they did anyway. But it was cool to have someone confirm it, none the less.

jneihouse wrote:Somehow I thought so...

Jim T. · Post by **Jim T.** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:32 pm

Having read and re-read this thread a few times I think I will side with Shorty and Steve b.

First of all, I think we can all agree that the title of this thread is not represenative of what everyone is talking about.

Second, of all of the cited articles none appear to back up anything anyone has stated as fact.

And finally, having read a few books and articles on the art of sniping I remember them disucussing many environmental impacts including the rotation of the earth, but do not recall any protocol that took into account changing lighting and definitive adjustments relating to same.

Having said that, I have experienced light changes (shadow) that made an animal look smaller (i.e. if you are transfixed on the bright white sight picture) if you were not careful, but I certainly would not make a sight correction for this illusion.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:45 pm

jneihouse wrote:Stubbornness knows no gender as we well know, Mary.....Trying to convince Shorty to be a little more open minded about the effects of ambient light and the value of a wide variety of experience to a shooter reminds me of kicking the proverbial dead mule....Always works out the same...you end up frustrated and the mule still won't move....Shoot on Shorty and have fun....but please don't ask me to spot for you if we ever by chance get to shoot together..

Kitty

Hey Kitty, I bet he'd like a 504...

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:31 am

If you read some of the posts you will also note Steve and others have mentioned 'rail guns' and 'clamping' the rifle. That in itself will produce the same shot as you are taking the humon factor out. I think the real question is if one is in an off hand match and the shooter is looking through a scope/lens can the perceived POA (point of 'aim') change due to light conditions, as it does with open sights.

That said I feel it does, but it is not as noticable, or as significant, as the change shooting with open sights on a paper target with a black bull.

Just my 2 cents

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:52 am

Bob259,
Position of the face on the stock, and other physical things occur with "rail" vs. offhand. However, don't forget that the point that you aim from ('face on the stock') even in a rail gun can change also.

If experience has nothing to do with it, then why do the master class shooters tend to have spotters, (usually very carefully selected) and adjust their sights and or POA during a match based on the condition calls of their spotter and their own instincts?

Mary

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:55 am

All of which has absolutely nothing to do with where the sun is in the sky. Thanks for playing though!

Innocent wrote:If experience has nothing to do with it, then why do the master class shooters tend to have spotters, (usually very carefully selected) and adjust their sights and or POA during a match based on the condition calls of their spotter and their own instincts?