AR Modernization for growth

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375Short
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AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Topics appear on a regular basis that have something to do with growth or sustainability of our sport. It’s a concern for anyone with a passion for the sport of Silhouette. Reading Dustin’s recent positive overview of our sport and perhaps our own observations we aren’t doing bad and if we can bring in more shooters - better.

My thoughts about the AR15 and AR10 platform of rifles started about a year ago when a friend asked if he and his wife could shoot their AR’s in Highpower Silhouette. My observations where I had not personally witnessed an AR at a match so I broke down and read the rules with the AR in mind. The pitfall is that by its design which includes a magazine in the exact location you would likely want your support hand , the AR starts to clash with the HP rule of not using the magazine as a palm rest. That verbiage is not present in the current Hunter class rules.

The AR is the most popular Highpower rifle in America. It is likely an avenue to explore to modernize our sport and bring a number of potential new shooters into the sport. It seems short sighted or antiquated to be excluding the AR enthusiast which includes many High Power target shooters.

Perhaps a solution through a rule specific to the rifle such as the following example.

1. 3.1.2 - AR15 or AR10 type commercially produced or owner assembled from commercial parts,
semi-automatic rifles fed from external removable magazines and
equipped with a functional safety. Magazines must be sized and
commercially produced to hold no more than 5, 10 or 20 rounds. The
magazine may be loaded with no more than 5 rounds. During firing a
magazine must be in the rifle and the chamber fed from the magazine during the course of fire.
The Magazine may be used as a rest. The trigger must be safe from slam fires or multiple
firing from a single pull of the trigger. Barrel length and weight must comply with the appropriate class being entered, High-power or Hunter.

(A) barrels - 6mm or larger caliber and must be at least 16” in
length, out of respect for other competitors, longer barrels are
encouraged. Muzzle devices are allowed. Flash suppressor are common on this style
of rifle and allowed. Muzzle devices designed to be a muzzle break or
include a muzzle break in the design are not allowed. Suppressors are not allowed.

(B) stocks - must be commercially produced and unaltered from their
original form. They may be fixed or adjustable, including the cheek
piece.

(C) sights - Scope, peep or open. Scopes may not be offset and may not be
mounted more than 2” above the top of the receiver as measured
to the bottom of the scope’s tube.

(D) Empty case ejection - cartridge cases shall not be permitted to
eject in a way that causes Competitors or spotters to be struck. Cartridge deflectors and
catchers are allowed, encouraged, and may be affixed to the rifle,
they may not be used as a rest or support.

The goal here is to see if there is any appetite to allow this style of rifle Or flush out why it can’t or shouldn’t be considered.

* Important - these are not proposed NRA rule changes from the NRA or a form of mutiny. I made up the rule change as an Example and conversation point. I think when one throws out an idea it should include a way for it to work.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by thauglor »

The only issue is you still restricted it to 6mm or larger, that cuts off what, like 80% of ar15 users who only have a 223 rifle? There are people all across the USA shooting steel with 556 every weekend and targets hold up fine. but the NRA said nothing smaller than 6mm for some reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbcK2pnipis
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by atomicbrh »

Pistol cartridge calibers on the AR platform are very popular right now and should not cause target damage on the softer grades of steel. Also, low recoil. It would just be a matter of working out the distances and scale size of the targets based on group size of the platform. I doubt you could get a scope with enough elevation to get out to a 100 meter ram.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Merlin »

atomicbrh wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:53 pm Pistol cartridge calibers on the AR platform are very popular right now and should not cause target damage on the softer grades of steel. Also, low recoil. It would just be a matter of working out the distances and scale size of the targets based on group size of the platform. I doubt you could get a scope with enough elevation to get out to a 100 meter ram.
Less than a 5" drop at 100 with a 115....
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Merlin »

Merlin wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:22 pm
atomicbrh wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:53 pm Pistol cartridge calibers on the AR platform are very popular right now and should not cause target damage on the softer grades of steel. Also, low recoil. It would just be a matter of working out the distances and scale size of the targets based on group size of the platform. I doubt you could get a scope with enough elevation to get out to a 100 meter ram.
Less than a 5" drop at 100 with a 115 and a 50 yard zero.. ~8"-9" total.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Thank you for the input.

Pistol cartridge AR is a very interesting concept. Certainly something that can be tried at the local / club match at anytime someone is willing.

No doubt the .223 is king of the AR chambering. I think a way to get this cartridge and rifle platform on the line is under development in LA as a half distance game. I believe the main issue to workout is going to be target construction/longevity. My one shot, at a friends insistence, on his property, at his privately owned targets ended up with a chicken that looked like a Plasma cutter burned a hole clean through the center. He didn’t ask me to shoot any others. But where there’s a will there’s a way to a solution. Most silhouette shooters are reloaders and could find a solution through load development but that’s not a reasonable standard for the vast majority of shooters.

With Highpower Silhouette the AR is a direct fit, as is, except for needing a place for the support hand. Lots of capable cartridge options and the average shooter can switch calibers and make various other repairs without a gun smith or machine shop at a much lower cost. 40 years ago I found the things repulsive, they kind of grow on you over time. Especially with the ease of being able to make major repairs and caliber changes yourself. Bolt guns are awesome and not going anywhere soon but a little dated with the late 1800’s design. Had AR’s been as popular and common as they are now when the sport came into the US they would likely have been included. Throughout history our military arms have grown into our sporting arms.

As we pounder this topic it has crossed my mind that the AR is not a good choice for the international shooter. I’m not positive, I’m speaking only on a guess, but I think a Canada or Mexico match may be problematic.

So far the thoughts seem positive and encouraging of even more ways to allow AR’s into the game. We will see how the thread looks in a few more weeks.

Again thanks for your input, it’s appreciated.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by thauglor »

375Short wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:39 am .... My one shot, at a friends insistence, on his property, at his privately owned targets ended up with a chicken that looked like a Plasma cutter burned a hole clean through the center. He didn’t ask me to shoot any others...
Then he didn't have the proper AR500 targets, as evidenced by the video I linked to, even at 100 yards the steel penetrator m855 left a small dimple and at 200 barely a dimple. And from the comments, this was 3/8 plate not the 1/2 inch plate as recommended for chickens

I came over to silhouette from nra xtc, had a nice match rifle built. Being uniformed and clueless of how the nra works, I figured since both xtc and silhouette were nra sports, there would be a category to use my match rifle from xtc in silhouette. I figured the NRA in its wisdom would want someone to be able to shoot as many types of competitions as possible with the same setup, but that is not how it works

You could open up that ar15 category to the nra match rifle
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by dhatch »

I think that opening up silhouette for AR rifles is a great idea. I don’t see any reason to involve the NRA at all. I don’t see any reason to try to fit them AR platform to existing High Power rules.
Create a whole new classification just for ARs through NASSA Silhouette. Just a thought.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Thanks again for the great input.

Apparently the steel exists for durable targets, may already be known to many but now it’s known to a few more, or at least one more.

NASSA has a great looking future ahead and it may indeed be an avenue for this discipline. For the unfamiliar this is a link to the NASSA web page https://nassasilhouette.org/ A large group of people putting in a good deal of effort to build a foundation for Silhouette’s international future.

I have had this AR platform discussion with a number of shooters before jumping in with this post and received no pushback. This post seems to be continuing that trend. No one wants to think something may be a good idea to learn that the boat is full of holes after launching. I’m starting to feel more comfortable about asserting the inclusion of AR’s whenever the appropriate audience is at hand.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by dscak1 »

Paragraph 3.1.2 of the current silhouette rule book (High Power Semi Auto Military Rifle) permits pretty much the rifle you are suggesting, with the exception that it requires a 4.5 lb trigger (x course) and original type sights. If that paragraph were modified to permit a different trigger weight and a scope, you would be in business, with the exception of allowing 223/5.56 ammo which is another discussion as pointed out by Zoren. Dan
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Dan

Thanks for your input. That would be an easy approach and another way to get this ball rolling. I’m reading support in the responses with helpful suggestions on how to proceed.

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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

I’m a newbie in silhouette compared to many in our sport. Can anyone suggest my next move? I can obviously open up a conversation with Aaron or whoever the appropriate person is within the NRA but if someone can help me avoid land mines, if any, based on prior experience I’m all ears.

Im not trying to be a wise guy, I’m mostly to ignorant for that, but I have heard the Silhouette committee mentioned a number of times. Who are they, where are they, how do I reach a member to have something heard by them? How does one find a name, phone number or email? I feel like I have missed something. These are broad audience questions, maybe a committee member is reading this and can answer. I think the answers can educate more than just me.

This is a good off season constructive project for me and maybe I can make some headway by the time folks gather for bigger matches in the coming season - I’m a optimist by nature. I also realize it may be as simple as picking up the phone and talking with Aaron or the whoever the appropriate person is but I think there is a large audience as ignorant on this as I and may benefit from the answers.

I’m not trying to open a dialogue of bashing or finger pointing just looking for solid advice and information. I may have been a little redundant, just ignore whatever sounded like an echo.

Thanks all
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by atomicbrh »

It's just me, but a first step would be to buy a few test targets.
Then shoot them at various distances with various bullet combinations in the AR platform calibers.
Evaluate for target damage and longevity.
You can do these experiments shooting off the bench to save ammo.
Hit the targets at different places on the targets to see how they fall and where ringers might result especially on rams.
After you work the targets and distance out, hold club matches for a period of time to determine if any unanticipated pitfalls arise.
If the game is so successful that it spreads outside of your club to other clubs, then approach a sanctioning body.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

That is good advice, for what is being looked at as a short or reduced course with a focus towards the .223 chambering by others.

To have any hope of success it’s probably best to stay focused on one area at a time.

The first objective is to make the simple (or not so simple) changes needed to get the AR platform allowed in current Highpower and Hunter class Highpower matches at the standard distance at the standard targets. Caliber testing has been conducted for decades , nothing mysterious will occur when the same projectiles launch from an AR chamber. They will be faced with the same success and failures as bolt guns.

In the simplest break down of the issue they are almost okay now but almost isn’t where you want to be checking in for a match. The magazine is the only logical place for you support hand and we don’t want to smack our fellow shooters and spotters with brass. The stock and action is shaped nothing like a bolt gun and bolt gun is clearly what was front of mind when the rules where drafted. Logically so.

As Dan pointed out the changes are fairly straight forward and could likely be made in the most under used category allowed in HP silhouette, 3.1.2 but still allow for the pure military rifles it address.

How they actually perform in a match or the success of drawing in more shooters can only be fully measured after the gate opens. My untested opinion is they will be more than up to the task in a number of available chamberings. You will loose some flexibility due to the magazine restricting OAL and the fact that it must survive the rough process of feeding but gain the flexibility to try a new cartridge nearly on a whim. Heck just switch uppers to go from a heavy HP rifle to a lighter Hunter class rifle, the same trigger stays with the lower. The flexibility and relatively low cost can be a big bonus for folks that already own a AR platform. I don’t see them becoming the dominant choice on the line but if that is where the road goes that’s not a bad thing. Some small advantage when traveling could be a benefit. Separated from the lower you have a fairly small package, add a second upper, if you like, and you have a significantly smaller package than two full blown bolt guns.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by dscak1 »

Use of the magazine to grasp is permitted according to 3.1.2.b. So I think you are only back to the trigger and a scope. Having been a match director and being acquainted with others, I'm sure both issues would be overlooked in a local match. As for the members of the silhouette committee, if you find out the information, please let the rank and file know. The past members were notified by the NRA that their services were no longer required. No information has been since made available (to my knowledge) officially naming current members of the committee. Dan
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