AR Modernization for growth

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375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Thanks Dan, excellent information..
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by gunnut00 »

I'm late to this party, but my local match has an outlaw AR-15 (5.56x45/.223) class every month. Due to our range, we shoot at 200 meters for all targets. The pigs, turkeys, and rams are scaled as appropriate. I've rung maybe 1-2 animals with 55 gr, but 62gr, 69gr, 75gr, etc are commonly available. People even come out and shoot other 5.56 rifles like AUGs, etc. It is a great way to get folks interested in silhouette and might be more achievable for many gun clubs if run on a reduced course. We normally have enough shooters in the class to give the same awards as standard/hunter.

edit- I believe we have been running this AR class for at least 5 maybe even 10 years, so I don't think you need to do much testing to know that a reduced course (200m) 223 class will work just fine.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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Update - I spoke with Aaron Farmer at NRA in Virginia. He is the correct person I needed to get the proposed rule amendments in front of the silhouette committee. There is a Committee and if I understood correctly they have already met for the 2023 season.

I will submit rule change suggestions to Aaron and he will get them to the committee. The committee will chew on it and we will see what happens. It is a start and nothing starts without the first step.

I believe Dan’s approach to modifying 3.1.2 is going to be the path and was Aaron’s thought as well.

I understand that with my casual conversations with fellow competitors and reaching out to fellow competitors on this forum I have only received the views and opinions of a small number of the silhouette community. This thing is not going anyplace fast so there’s ample time for input over the next year……or so.

Unless I missed something there has been no comments suggesting opposition to the idea and none was received during my conversation today. The remaining process will be a slow journey, but it has begun.

Thank you all for your suggestions
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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Update 2 - as of Friday evening the rule change suggestions have been received at NRA HQ. As a thought towards perhaps meeting less resistance I left the 6mm restriction in the language BUT added the following comments:

“ A point of consideration. I wrote the standard 6mm bore restriction. I think it could be advantageous to omit a bore restriction. The most common chambering is .223, it will be nearly a complete failure for the task at hand (although heavy, high BC bullets are Changing the landscape) That’s okay , it will be a self regulated issue. The person that wants to try the sport comes to a match with a .223 AR, they try it, it doesn’t work well but they liked the sport. They go home rebarrel or build a new upper and come back with something that works. If you start with the 6mm restriction some of these people never come at all.

I have heard volumes about the .223 and target damage but I just can’t wrap my head around it. If a fast .243 bullet doesn’t do to much target damage at 200m I can’t see a slower .223 bullet doing anymore damage. Beyond the chicken line things will get even less dramatic. Plus we have a rule about target damage and leaving the matter to a match directors discretion.”

I’m sure those two paragraphs could creat volumes of opinion and fact related banter and most assuredly I didn’t get it all right. It’s a starting point and reflects the desire I have read and heard to not exclude the .223.

I want to be open about what I have done and the words used to set this thing in motion. The language sent was taken from this thread. My guess is there will be little more to add for a long time to come and this thread will be lost deep into thread history as we wait.

Thanks again for your input and suggestions

Wayne Byers
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Merlin »

6.5 Grendal. Affordable, easy to load for with lots of availability for components.. Basic AR platform with barrel, bolt and mag change only.
Last edited by Merlin on Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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NRA Lever Action Silhouette - You get more clang for your bang with lever action silhouette.....
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375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/bca-ar ... twist.html

Under $200.00, no gun smith needed.

The 6mm ARC may get the job done as well

If folks like the AR10 platform they can find the Creedmore family of cartridge’s or 243, 308, 7-08 lots of options and changing your mind about your choice is way less painful than changing your mind with a bolt gun.

I think, I hope, it will be an avenue for growing the sport with new shooters and a new bug for the more seasoned.

voicing Positive interest over the next year or so will help support the approval process.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by gunnut00 »

I believe that you want as few restrictions as possible and a built-in reduced course ruleset. In my mind a 223/5.56 AR category is basically trying to replicate the original ideas around a "Hunter" class - the idea was that everyone had a "Hunter" rifle in the safe and could come and shoot it. Today, that's the MSR in 223.

Yes, people could get 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, etc, but to me, that misses the point of an AR class - I assume the goal is to get more people out shooting silhouette. And you get more people out shooting silhouette if there are more matches closer to home with guns and ammo they already own. This might be a fools errand as we already have smallbore for smaller ranges/common guns, I have to assume most people with a MSR have a 22 lying around.

My vote is Keep It Simple, if it is an MSR lower, go wild on stocks/grips/barrels/optics, maybe have a trigger lb limit similar to Standard class for safety.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Hawkeye7br »

So why not offer this category as a trial or side match at the local level using paper targets? The cost is minimal compared to steel targets. You can shoot half scale from 50-200 yards or meters, even at lever gun events?. Score the paper targets as hit or miss, edge hit must be substantial, as in about half the bullet diameter on the target.

If there is no interest at the local level, there will not likely have interest at the national level.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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I suggest requiring brass catchers to protect adjacent shooters on the line. I think that many 5.56 shooters don't reload so may not be inclined to save their brass.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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MOTO VITA wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:14 am I suggest requiring brass catchers to protect adjacent shooters on the line. I think that many 5.56 shooters don't reload so may not be inclined to save their brass.
No offense but that is a sure way to drive people away. People are competing in CMP and NRA service rifle matches since semi autos came out; they are doing just fine without requiring such a device. It is not an issue. When it does hit you, you barely feel it. I did XTC for a few years before switching to silhouette, I have never had a spent casing from a neighbor go down my shirt
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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thauglor wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:34 am... I have never had a spent casing from a neighbor go down my shirt
You don't have the cleavage for that to happen. :))
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Brass catcher or Deflector - is in the rule change that has been submitted to the NRA. The rule change proposal is included earlier in this thread. CMP and NRA high power have a along tradition of semi automatic service rifles on the line, they have long courses of fire with generous amounts of time to fire. In Contrast High Power Silhouette does not have a history of semi automatic rifle use nor does it have generous amounts of time to fire 5 shots over a long course of fire.

Finding an avenue to introduce the AR for common use and acceptance shouldn’t include slapping the person(s) next to you with brass. It is challenging enough to execute 5 precise shots in 2.5 minutes without having your concentration shattered by incoming brass. A brass catcher or deflector is just good manners, respectful of fellow competitors. When you want something new to be welcome at an event, best not to start off annoying others around you.

Catchers or deflectors are cheap and easy to make at home and cost almost nothing. Hardly more trouble than covering your face when you sneeze in public.

I have no idea what the final product will look like when it comes out the other end of the committee process. Being the first time I have ever submitted anything for committee consideration, I’m not even sure how exactly the process works but keeping your brass confined to your own space should probably survive the process if the AR platform is going to be welcomed by fellow competitors.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Heavybarrell »

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but after 375short's comment I have to. I can't agree more with his comments above. Years ago my buddy and I went to a monthly HP match. I was sighting in first he bounced a few case off my hat and a I got stung in the neck with an extremely hot M1 Garand spent case. It was not PLEASANT! I didn't say anything to the gentleman shooting it, hoping it was a fluke. I finished getting sighted in and my buddy started. I'm now in a seat spotting and brass is now bouncing off the spotting scope. I'm sure the guy wasn't aware of his actions because he didn't have a spotter. However, in my frustration I said a few choice words and told him to get away from us. I have shot this sport for many years, never have I shot beside a person shooting a semi that either had a deflector or asked me if their brass was hitting me and told me if it does to let them know. Now I'm pretty sure the gentleman I'm talking about was a newbie and wanted to shoot his Garand. I absolutely want people to shoot and shoot what you have and can afford. But, HOT brass on your neck is NOT an enjoyable experience. So yes, we want to promote the sport, but pissing your neighbor off with hot brass isn't good for the sport either.
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

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Heavybarrell wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 5:42 pm I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but after 375short's comment I have to. I can't agree more with his comments above. Years ago my buddy and I went to a monthly HP match. I was sighting in first he bounced a few case off my hat and a I got stung in the neck with an extremely hot M1 Garand spent case. It was not PLEASANT! I didn't say anything to the gentleman shooting it, hoping it was a fluke. I finished getting sighted in and my buddy started. I'm now in a seat spotting and brass is now bouncing off the spotting scope. I'm sure the guy wasn't aware of his actions because he didn't have a spotter. However, in my frustration I said a few choice words and told him to get away from us. I have shot this sport for many years, never have I shot beside a person shooting a semi that either had a deflector or asked me if their brass was hitting me and told me if it does to let them know. Now I'm pretty sure the gentleman I'm talking about was a newbie and wanted to shoot his Garand. I absolutely want people to shoot and shoot what you have and can afford. But, HOT brass on your neck is NOT an enjoyable experience. So yes, we want to promote the sport, but pissing your neighbor off with hot brass isn't good for the sport either.
Looks like 375shorts has an uphill battle if this is the common thinking on semi autos at a HP range
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

I feel extremely optimistic. The input from folks has been positive and helpful. To hope for no differing opinions over details would probably be an unrealistic expectation. The controlling of ejected brass isn’t hard and I think will likely not be an issue to most competitors. The majority will appreciate not getting hit. If we where to loose some tiny fraction of competitors over brass control its an acceptable trade for the majority to enjoy a new rifle type option. It is also likely an AR user isn’t wanting to loose brass anymore than bolt gun users and would be happy to have it caught or dropping at there feet. I will be happy to go home with all the Grendel brass I came with.

It is funny that of the issues one would imagine might start some discussion I didn’t see this being one of them. I feel on solid ground that brass control is a more positive way to go.
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