Finding new, younger shooters

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durant7
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Finding new, younger shooters

Post by durant7 »

A perennial topic.

I started shooting MS in 1999 under the the mentorship of Nomad, aka Ernie Kuney. Sadly he has passed on. Now, 22 years later, I am still playing the game somewhat more casually than in my Texas years. And, with COVID and work, I have not been able to travel or practice, prep the way one should before pushing off for Ridgeway, Pe Ell, Sunshine Classic or other event. NH has gravitated to Cowboy. Not much "scope" gun shooting happening be it 1/5th or club rifle on 1/2 scale animals. Currently, we get 12-16 shooters for CLA and it seems to be the healthiest of all the disciplines. But CLA is not a place to start for new shooters. I know I would never have started there. Ernie told me to find a NS522, Weaver KT15 and Federal 510 to start. Within 2 months I had a starter 1/5th gun.

Club Rifle is the place to start. I am heavily biased as this is they way I started at Haltom City. In general terms, 2nd Sunday was a fun match where EVERYONE came and shot 1/2 scale animals with their 1/5th rifles...or...even an old Mossberg on a 2x4. The focus was on hooking new shooters. A new shooter would show up with their rifle. Be humored for a bit and then handed a 1/5th rifle and ammo that was sorted and you shot squadded with that veteran who took you under their wing. You saw them shoot 38 animals and hopefully you hit 12. You came back. Maybe this time with your rifle a bit more sorted. More coaching. More advice. Then one day you came to the 1/5th match on the 3rd Sunday. And if you were really nuts, you went the 4th Sunday for Air Silhouette. I fell for it hook line and sinker.

Why I have not been able to repeat this model in NH I do not know. It has not been due to lack of effort. Saturday shooting clinics, blog, MailChimp. Maybe 3-5 shooters have stuck after 20 years. Today, I look at the Mailchimp email list of 150 names and so many have come and gone. Pretty low conversion rate.

Next, the club can post an "action pistol" match and it is sold out in 24 hours hitting its 150 shooter cap. And all this for $100 entry fee. Perhaps a small bit of embellishment. But the participation, revenue, youth that 3Gun, Steel Challenge, IDPA, whatever attracts makes silhouette a rounding error. Anyone out there know what the appeal is of shooting against a timer for speed, similar to a video game, than to the sport of Silhouette?

Equipment? I argue anyone can visit a gun shop and walk out with a Glock or Taurus and a box of 9mm shells and play the game the next day. I don't think it is that easy for Silhouette. Go find a CZ American and some Federal 710 Target ammo for a quick start. Even if you wanted to, I don't think a gun shop will have in stock what you need to play silhouette. Gun, scope, ammo. Cowboy with iron sights was to be a solve for the $400 scope. Just try finding a Marlin or Remlin 39A. They cannot be found. Truth be told serious shooters are shooting old pre safety 39As. Metal not aluminum 66A rear sights or even more dear, the Redfield 75s.

Slow pace. Silhouette is slow. And difficult. Gas prices, 22LR ammo shortages, no one marketing to the 22LR crowd unless you are top tier shooter. Getting folks started is tough. Asking them to reload and sort out load development with a Primer/bullet shortage and price gouging makes the barrier to entry even worse.

I would like to hear from others that have been able to fend off Action Pistol growth. Attract new shooters and have a higher stick factor. I am going to keep working at it. But we all know the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing year after year and expecting different results.

Thanks for in advance for some stimulating ideas.
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Merlin
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Merlin »

To slow and to hard. We live in a world of instant gratification and most don't want to take the time to shoot relays and reset all the targets.

Lever action rimfire - Every Tuesday afternoon practice match. To speed it up and make it easier.... Numbered Paper targets - take 10 shots from a position, pull the targets and count the hits at the scorekeepers area. Reset with new targets at the same time you pull the previous. We staple our paper targets to corrugated plastic and clamp them with a big spring clamp. Takes 4 pieces of plastic backers per shooter. We shoot 2 rounds of 10 at a time per station before moving to the next station. So an 80 round match in about an hour of actual shooting.

Want to shoot steel... One swinger per station, per shooter. Shoot 5 or 10 at Your swinger - count, paint and move to the next bank of swingers....
"Only God can judge me." Merlin

"Merlin..Your'e a rimfire whore." God

NRA Lever Action Silhouette - You get more clang for your bang with lever action silhouette.....
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by mjjudd1 »

Our matches have had plenty of young shooters in attendance. We shoot lever Smallbore and pistol cartridge once a month and usually have 3-6 or more junior shooters. Equipment cost is nothing when compared to action pistol or other disciplines. Our sport is far cheaper. Plus we’ve developed a “everyone shoots” rule. Meaning if you show up at our lever gun match with a gun that doesn’t meet the NRA rules then we place you in the club class. You still shoot and get introduced to the sport. Child too young to hold the rifle offhand? We let them shoot off a bench. Again to get them shooting. Our family also makes it a point to bring one or two extra Smallbore guns to the match to loan out to anyone who may want to try it out. I’m convinced the more we do to help out newer shooters try out silhouette the better our sport will be. These new shooters may not be setting national records their first time out but our goal is to get them into the game, make sure they have a safe and fun time. So far that always gets repeat business.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by atomicbrh »

First, one must look at the differences in the sanctioning bodies for the action pistol sports and silhouette.
USPSA, STEEL CHALLENGE and IDPA have many full time employees who earn a good income in a multi-tiered, multi-regional organization. Every employee is an active competitor who understands their sport up and down. Every employee is dedicated to their discipline and not multiple disciplines. Competitors go home with prizes that have real monetary value worth more than the entry fees. I am guessing but I would say that these sanctioning bodies have many employees whose sole job is to recruit monetary corporate sponsorship. When you are a member, print publications arrive in the mail every month and by email covering technical aspects of equipment and match reports from local to international. The RSO' s that work the larger matches have all expenses paid(airline, lodging,food) plus all brass is divided amongst the RSO' s. They tried to convince me to go to RSO school because they said the amount of once fired brass you get is worth working the matches. I learned a lot in our time in the action sports and if silhouette adopted their organizational practices, all would benefit.
Contrast this to the silhouette sanctioning body.
Last edited by atomicbrh on Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Snake »

USPSA and IDPA aren't the real draw from silhouette ...pistol disciplines have been around a long long time. You should notice that the rifle games with a recent draw are the self-styled 'tactical' games. Everybody wants to be Chris Lyle ...shoot long range 'tactically'......crawl around on the ground with a 20lbs rifle. Silhouette requires standing and a rifle weight limit under 11lbs and no more restrictive clothing than a hunter might wear AND you have to shoot where everyone can see what you hit or didn't hit.....the beauty of paper targets is only you and your spotter see in real time what you did or didn't do. Anonymity until the scoring room has its benefit. The real problem is lack of participation from the so-called 'regulars'....it seems that everyone wants to win forgetting that this game is really a game of self-mastery, you are your competition. I think the participation awards mentality created a big part of this problem along with the video game mindset.
Sadly all shooting disciplines are in decline, XTC for example or DCM matches are having their issues with participation, even Bench Rest. BPCR used to attract literally hundreds but no more; even the Quigley match was down in attendance.
It doesn't help a sport when sponsors don't step up. Thankfully for company's like Capstone Precision (Lapua) and Starline and the small private operations ....it used to be that we even had rifles commercially produced for our sport (e.g Anschutz 54.18 MS, Savage 112, Remington 700 Varminters, etc) and scopes (Leupold 12x, 16x , 6.5x 20x EFR, 24x, 25x, 30x 36x, Weavers 12x, 16x, 24x, 36x, Redfield 10x 12x) that actually 'made weight' BUT good look at the prize table for PRS or the latest dujour sport.
Last edited by Snake on Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
atomicbrh
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by atomicbrh »

https://www.idpa.com/about-idpa/corporate-sponsorships/

https://form.jotform.com/213142685286156

Nationwide and regional Staff organization of another shooting sport:
If Silhouette had full time staff like this, silhouette would be as popular.

https://uspsa.org/contact

It is not the silhouette game itself but the fact that nobody is running it and promoting it fulltime on a nationwide or worldwide level.
It is just as tough or tougher to achieve Grand Master in USPSA as it is to achieve Master in Scoped Highpower.

https://uspsa.org/top20
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Grantmac »

I shoot PRS and silhouette.
The PRS game is far more interesting to look at from the outside. The equipment rules are not based on some BS about what constituted a hunting rifle in 1980 and it's much more about problem solving then simply grinding your way to competence.
That said silhouette is more satisfying. I think because getting each hit is harder and there isn't much time pressure so you can fully register it rather than moving onto the next shot immediately.

There are things silhouette could learn from the rise in popularity surrounding PRS but I feel the sport will likely die before that happens.

As for younger shooters they don't have the time or money to do any shooting sport which requires extensive travel outside their city. You can thank the spiraling cost of living far outpacing entry level job salary for the death of most hobbies. Most young people can't afford a car let alone an expensive sport like this.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by hermit5 »

I think taking a new shooter to a match the first time is overwhelming.
Take the newbie to the range just you and them.They can learn much easier and comfortable.
Making safety mistakes and being under time is a turnoff.
durant7
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by durant7 »

Interesting. Yup, always have a loaner gun available. A CZ Scout for the small fry. Even a tripod with a tapped in front forearm bag as benches can be too big, long, deep, funny for small fry.

I think the key is comradery. It is a group of folks that enjoy each other, help each other and also work on self mastery with a help of a spotter. And typically the favor is returned when the spotter's time to shoot comes up. I think that will be the focus. Connecting people so they have so much fun regardless of how many animals fell, they invite their buddies.

I was introduced to what the "action" crowd want to add, Metal Madness. Seems to be originating the the South which I find is very pro shooting sports. It solve many of the Silhouette problems. FAST. Instant posted results. Compare yourself against anyone in the country. All for a $25 annual membership.

Is this the future? Or just a passing fad?

https://www.mmssa.net/
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by acorneau »

atomicbrh wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:06 am They tried to convince me to go to RSO school because they said the amount of once fired brass you get is worth working the matches.
Bobby, come be an RSO at the Coop Shoot and the Shamrock Shoot and you can have all the brass from the matches!

:o)
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atomicbrh
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by atomicbrh »

Funny but you need to go to one of the USPSA National or regional matches to see what silhouette could be. There is nothing wrong with the silhouette game as it exists. Silhouette has never had a stand alone sanctioning body to properly organize and promote it. As soon as the action pistol sports broke away from the multi-discipline/lobbyist sanctioning body it thrived and success built upon success.
I think that an independent sanctioning body in time could make someone a good income.
All the competitors in my family would pay a 40 dollar annual membership fee to have an organization that kept up with classifications/records, published rule books and scheduled matches efficiently. 40 x 1000 members = a 40k gross income probably just the first year. Then with success it would increase exponentially every year. Silhouette does not need committees to make decisions or rules. The old saying goes: "Too many cooks spoil the stew." We need one intelligent dictator.
The two people that come to mind for that dictatorship are either Allen C. in Texas or David M. in Tennessee. Those two have all the needed skills.
Silhouette is at the same point where stock car racing was in the 1940's. Racing needed organization and promotion by somebody who understood every aspect of the sport. Bill France saw the need for a sanctioning body and the France family has been very successful with it. The same can be done with Silhouette.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

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atomicbrh wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:25 am Funny but you need to go to one of the USPSA National or regional matches to see what silhouette could be. There is nothing wrong with the silhouette game as it exists. Silhouette has never had a stand alone sanctioning body to properly organize and promote it. As soon as the action pistol sports broke away from the multi-discipline/lobbyist sanctioning body it thrived and success built upon success.
I think that an independent sanctioning body in time could make someone a good income.
All the competitors in my family would pay a 40 dollar annual membership fee to have an organization that kept up with classifications/records, published rule books and scheduled matches efficiently. 40 x 1000 members = a 40k gross income probably just the first year. Then with success it would increase exponentially every year. Silhouette does not need committees to make decisions or rules. The old saying goes: "Too many cooks spoil the stew." We need one intelligent dictator.
The two people that come to mind for that dictatorship are either Allen C. in Texas or David M. in Tennessee. Those two have all the needed skills.
Silhouette is at the same point where stock car racing was in the 1940's. Racing needed organization and promotion by somebody who understood every aspect of the sport. Bill France saw the need for a sanctioning body and the France family has been very successful with it. The same can be done with Silhouette.
About time we resurrect the original USSA (UNITED STATES SILUETA/SILHOUETTE ASSOCIATION) that ran the silhouette matches in Arizona and other states in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They let the NRA take over the game and the rest is history.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by cedestech »

lone ringer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:57 pm
About time we resurrect the original USSA (UNITED STATES SILUETA/SILHOUETTE ASSOCIATION) that ran the silhouette matches in Arizona and other states in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They let the NRA take over the game and the rest is history.

https://nassasilhouette.org/about-us/
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by PAndy »

Silhouette shooting went from unknown to very popular in a short period of time, 40 years ago. For those who were shooting then ...disregarding the current situation for a moment...why did it become popular so fast? Were they new shooters or target shooters getting involved?
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by atomicbrh »

It was not necessarily 40 years ago.
Rifle competition started hundreds of years ago when the second rifle was manufactured.
Silhouette was just a natural, less messy progression of the live animal shoots in Mexico/United States and the plate shoots in Europe(German Schutzenfest). I am reading the official records of the 13th Mississippi Infantry regiment and many of the men in that unit were participating in weekly live animal shoots in the 1850's in Tommsuba, MS. The club was called "The Rifle Shooting Club at Bozeman's Mill". Every Saturday afternoon someone brought a yearling beef as the prize. The competitors paid an entry fee and were divided into two teams to shoot for the beef. The January 1, 1866 article stated that the rifles were some of the finest that could be purchased. If it was happening in rural Mississippi in the early 1800's, it had to be happening everywhere.
My personal theory is that the highwater point in popularity in Silhouette was due to it being the most "bang for the buck" in the shooting sports and hobbies in general. Ammo was cheap. Pellets were cheap. Reloading components were cheap. Ammo shortages and component shortages did not exist. Average working-class people could afford to buy the equipment and shoot the matches. Now average income people are struggling to just pay all the monthly bills and are doing hobbies that have no entry fees, no consumables cost and do not require them to leave home.
The stigma produced by the media, educators and politicians that firearms are evil and should be banned. There is a large segment of the population who are brainwashed by this and are not going anywhere near the shooting sports. That part of the population was not as large 40 years ago as it is now. That propaganda is working.
There are many, many families that would love to shoot Silhouette but cannot afford to do it in even the simplest, cheapest way.
Silhouette has a lot of appeal for many reasons:
1. Regular clothes are worn resulting in more comfort than two sweatshirts and a compression coat on 100+ degree days. You get tired of your elbows being rubbed raw by the ground and the sling.
2. Simple courses of fire.
3. On match days, setting up the targets is much easier and quicker than setting up most of the other shooting sports.
(I have been to USPSA matches that involve an artificial waterfall. Try setting that up.)
4. Simple scoring instead of having to use gauges, trying to decide if a hole in paper cut a line or not.
5. The purest form of long distance, unsupported marksmanship.
6. Safety procedures that allow parents to start kids young. The parents can stay right with the child (spotting) on the line and bring the child's rifle back and forth from the rack to the line if needed ensuring safety protocols are followed.
7. Standing position is great compared to lugging more equipment around for kneeling, prone and sitting positions. Standing position is great for us old people who can no longer get up and down efficiently for those other positions.
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