Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

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pdeal
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by pdeal »

I totally agree that in the sport of silhouette if I complain about another guy's fancy rifle is just a way to distract from my lack of skill- which comes from a lack of practice and training. I shoot a stock 1710. I'm pretty good at calling my shots and I can tell you every miss is on me. I'm also totally convinced that the CZ 457 can do the same.

I do suspect a Pharr pattern silhouette stock, I don't have one yet, is the best thing a person can do to gain points- from an equipment standpoint. Practice is still going to be even more important than this. I say this based on my experience with 10meter air rifle and 3p smallbore. Anything you can do to improve ergonomics in the standing position is good to do. It would be nice is if someone would come out with an off the shelf stock, in beech or even pine, whatever, in this pattern to fit a CZ 457. I think this would provide an awesome entry level silhouette rifle.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Doodaddy »

I have frequent migraines due to my eyes rolling back in my head permanently when I hear people utter the words "equipment race".

Sure there is a minimum performance threshold that needs to be met to be successful, but as it's been hammered in this thread already, that threshold is dirt cheap now days.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Hawkeye7br »

Comments from the OP are similar to many shooters returning to the sport after a long layoff. I see the same comments on the IHMSA silhouette forum. A little sticker shock, or a complaint that things were better in the old days. Just treat the current rules for what they are...the current rules.

There is a common problem that equipment violations (or potential violations) are not always enforced at the local level. Maybe well intentioned by the MD, but the shooter who then attends a championship and his gun or position come under scrutiny and feels they are being picked on when in fact his local MD is at fault for bending the rules.

I did have to raise an eyebrow when you said your wife was DQ'd at a championship for a rifle in factory class that had a custom barrel, Fajen custom stock, Jewell trigger, and a Leupold that had turrets added from their custom shop. I'm not arguing, but folks not in this sport would not consider all that custom stuff as "factory".
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Grantmac »

Can't help but think this game would be much cheaper if bolt on cheek pieces and "hamsters" were allowed so long as they fit within the measurements allowed. Again that's what NRL22 does and they are seeing massive success.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by ppkny »

At first read you would think that this thread is about 'equipment' but the more important concern is keeping people in the sport and getting new people to try it. Let's be honest, you can't show up with a squirrel gun and box of Thunderbolts and expect to be competitive or have "fun".
Silhouette unlike some of the newer 'shoot as many bullets down range as possible' requires more than just a casual dedication to the techniques of Off-Hand shooting.

Most new people at our range that come to try it quickly realize that this is hard and there's no instant gratification until you start to put on some time and at least get some equipment that can do the job. Most people that show up don't have clue and even after trying to help them they don't, can't or want to spend the time that it takes to start to understand what's required. It's no 'fun' to miss almost all the targets.

There are (3) fundamentals in shooting: the Gun, the Bullet and the Shooter. Each has to be addressed to achieve success.

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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by cedestech »

Grantmac wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:48 pm Can't help but think this game would be much cheaper if bolt on cheek pieces and "hamsters" were allowed so long as they fit within the measurements allowed. Again that's what NRL22 does and they are seeing massive success.
NRL 22 / 22 PRS are taking off because they are “new” and fun.

Silhouette is old and boring. It’s the same match, every week, every month, every place, every year… NRL/PRS are different every month.

Talk about shooting the entire match offhand to a serious (or even worse, not so serious) NRL/PRS shooter… they cringe. Shooting offhand is hard.

Don’t know what a “hamster” is but I assure you, there is NO club level match director who is going to shoo you away with any type of rifle wether it’s appropriate or not.

As far as someone going to a state or national match and not knowing the rules, I’ll give you that if someone is shooting a rifle that doesn’t meet the rules a match director SHOULD let them know, let them know he doesn’t care as long as they are having fun, and let them know if they take that set up to a state or national there will be an issue. I recall a few years ago someone trying to use a barrel rubber tuner thing on a hunter rifle at Nationals and it became an issue. The dude plead ignorance but also pitched a fit about removing it. It’s a 2 way street.
Last edited by cedestech on Wed Dec 29, 2021 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by cedestech »

(What PPKNY said) :ymapplause:
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by dhatch »

What all comments in this thread have said concerning what silhouette is nails it. It is very difficult, a Master’s classification, much less a win, cannot be bought.
I firmly believe that No rule changes whatsoever will change that. Also, no rule changes will attract and keep new shooters.
I’ve heard it said that silhouette is dying. I firmly believe that the constant changing and tweaking of the rules is detrimental to the sport. What we can change is how the tournaments are Managed. That change has already started and it will continue. I’ve been told that they are just getting started.
Currently I am unable to travel to many tournaments at all. That will soon change. How will I decide which tournaments to attend? The number 1 factor will be how each one is Managed.
At the Coop Shoot we do have a unique range that is certainly different and makes it a consideration. We have plans to continue with making it even more unique.
We have good food but for sure we are not the only one.
We believe that Prizes absolutely do matter. I believe that side games and the friendly bets add to the Fun.
Criteria for my choices of which tournaments to attend are good food at the match and locally, prizes, and the added fun.
I will NOT stop shooting silhouette till I draw my last breath regardless of prizes or side games and bets. I regret I didn’t find silhouette at a younger age.
But I will not go to, IMHO, tournaments that could be managed better.
Just my .02.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by atomicbrh »

USPSA and Steel Challenge are like silhouette in the fact that the courses of fire are basically always the same.
Steel Challenge is shot the same way every time: same targets, same distances and same courses of fire.
USPSA courses are supposedly up to the imagination of the match director, but most courses of fire wind up being the same thing with USPSA specified cardboard targets and specification steel plates at certain minimum and maximum distances. The courses of fire may have cutesy made up names and decorations but the targets are those same steel plates and those same cardboard spec targets every time.
USPSA is very popular and has a structure of full-time employees.
USPSA hosts schools to train people to direct matches and work as safety officers.
It is mandatory to attend those schools to work matches.
Most matches fill up within hours of the opening of registration.
Our local USPSA club has the ability to host a monthly match for about 150 people and they have to turn people away some months.
They had to start holding multiple matches each month because of the demand.
I think the match fees for major tournaments are slightly higher than silhouette, but the prizes are numerous and fantastic.
Industry sees the need to be involved in USPSA and Steel Challenge.
So, why is silhouette not as popular?
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Merlin »

IMO - no stand and deliver/static sport is ever going to be as popular as run and gun contests. In USPSA a singe course of fire of 20 to 30 rounds is the norm. A continuous movement with many different targets located in different positions with rapid fire as you acquire sight pictures while moving appeals to a much greater percentage of people rather than standing still trying to control your breathing while remaining calm and collected.

Watch a video of Jerry Miculek running stages in a 3Gun match and then watch a video of (insert whoever's name) shooting the targets in a Silhouette match. Tell me which game Mr. New Shooter is going to be interested in.

Visualize Stardew Valley or Journey and Abzu vs Halo Infinite or one of the Call to Duty games.
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atomicbrh
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by atomicbrh »

Somebody replied that Silhouette is the same exact "boring" thing over and over again.
A silhouette competitor with years of experience will tell you that no match is ever exactly the same. The ones with the most experience will tell you no single shot is every exactly the same. They know that there are an infinite number of conditions of light, humidity, wind, etc. and they see differences that the average person knows nothing about.
I know many people who were prolific silhouette shooters, still have modern competitive equipment, also have the money and time and are still physically fit enough to shoot a 3 day tournament. Those people are not shooting.
The question to ask is why aren't those people shooting?
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote: Wed Dec 29, 2021 10:21 am

A: Somebody replied that Silhouette is the same exact "boring" thing over and over again.

B:I know many people who were prolific silhouette shooters, still have modern competitive equipment, also have the money and time and are still physically fit enough to shoot a 3 day tournament. Those people are not shooting.
The question to ask is why aren't those people shooting?
A: That was me, maybe it didn’t come across how it was written. “I” love silhouette. Really enjoy the hell out of it and the people. The lay person showing up to watch a match…. It is a lot like watching golf (I compare it to golf). Unless you enjoy personally competing against yourself and striving to do better each new shot over the last, you won’t like it. No one can make you like it. No changing equipment, targets, colors, formats etc. is going to make you like it. It is precision rifle shooting off hand. It’s very complex and jacking up just one little part of the shot from picking up the rifle to the follow through will result in a X or a 0. No grey area. Most of the run and gun stuff has a fairly large margin for error. There are some precision targets but most are minute of human (or some other shape). Plus when you show up to a silhouette match it’s a bunch of (mostly) middle aged or older men, not the cool kids. Outside of vests there is no flashy team jerseys and cool tac-T-cool gear. Just a dude and his rifle standing real still trying to judge conditions and control himself to make that one, perfect, shot… then do it again and again and again… There are a TON of people that would consider it very boring.

B: What are your thoughts on why they stay home? (I do know exactly what you mean, I know people that you are describing)
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Grantmac »

I hear you on the NRL22 courses of fire being a draw and that outside of production class it's definitely a bit of an equipment race. From what I hear the winners are those folks who practice getting into position most effectively. Much like how silhouette winners spend a lot of time on holding drills etc.
I have yet to compete in NRL22 and I shoot silhouette as frequently as work allows which isn't much. I'm unlikely to travel beyond my local shoots but we have some competitive folks here and others quite happy to shoot the same sporter rifle for years.

I still think that allowing additions to a production rifle so long as it stays within the allowed dimensions would be a big bonus for new shooters. Rifle fit is just such a critical component and these additions are literally a few 10s of dollars. Although with cheap replacement stocks available a person can just get creative with the epoxy putty.

I can think of 4 tools that could easily be used by a tournament director to verify if a gun is legal. One that fits down the bore shaped like a large "L" which would ensure the comb isn't above bore height and would also verify drop at heel. The next being a simple caliper to verify scope height and stock depth (maybe make that be one combined dimension), then a scale for total rifle weight and finally a trigger pull gauge.

A "hamster" is a piece added in front of the trigger guard to make the front of the stock the maximum allowable depth. Very common in air rifle Field Target guns.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by atomicbrh »

Simpler than a dial caliper is a square stock delrin no go gauge with a radius of 1.501 inches turned on a lathe for Hunter. And 2.001 inches for standard rifle. A delrin no go gauge will not damage the finish on the receiver or scope like a hardened dial caliper. Pdeal on this forum can probably make those in his sleep. Sox & sons in Columbia S.C. also has a history of making those types of inspection gauges at very low cost.
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Re: Hunting rifle class silhouette rifle rules

Post by Emietenkorte »

Is it fun? Is it enjoyable? Is it challenging? Is it something that I want to share with my friends and family?
When I think of silhouette I answer yes to all of those questions. Rules are not the things that make this sport great. It's the challenge, it's the people, it's the camaraderie we silhouette shooters share! Whether or not I was required to shoot a $200 gun or a $5000 dollar gun it is still all of the aforementioned things. This sport is what you make of it, if you want people to enjoy it then you have to enjoy it too! Most people do things and continue to do things because of how they feel doing it. Encourage them, make them feel welcome and give them a reason to come back. Hold matches that give people a sense of accomplishment, I'm not just talking about match directors! We as silhouette shooters are all ambassadors of this sport! Sometimes that sense of accomplishment is making new friends, or finding a place where you are accepted. Accomplishment is not just shooting well.

The biggest question I ask myself is, does shooting silhouette make me happy? I feel that is a question more people need to ask themselves. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems that complaining about silhouette shooting is what makes some people happy and that is not a good mindset for our sport. I'm not saying certain aspects shouldn't be questioned or criticized but I feel some do it because that's all they have left of silhouette. Maybe shooting a $200 gun makes people happy because they are getting out and enjoying what they do, maybe someone enjoys building a $5000 dollar rifle with custom parts and paint jobs... guilty :D . My philosophy is, if shooting silhouette makes you happy then do it!
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