Bob Mc Alice wrote:....I still want to see those Cauturucio bullets filed down to centerline. I suspect they are nothing more than heavy VLD Match Kings. I agree they are a clear advantage over the regular factory Sierras, though.

Bob,

I need something more than a bench vice and files to get the job done correctly. How are you sectioning your bullets? Yours look great. I'd really like to section the old production of the 189 JLK, 177 Cauterucio and 139 Scenar's. And, if I dig around in my bullet stash, I probably even has some of the old 144-gr, 6.5mm Lapua bullets. Man, did those old bullets smash rams well. Oh, I think I even have some of the first generation 7mm A-Max with the aluminum tips that the Lone Ringer waxed eloquent about. I'll do some "stash diving" later.

cslcAl wrote:.....I have a ram related question for you. I have been shooting a lot of Cowboy silhouette and we too are playing the recoil vs. knockdown game. I know you have done extensive tests on momentum. I am not an engineer so what is a signifigant gain in momentum? I have recently done some testing with 170 Sierra 30-30's reduced to 1928fps. and the momentum at 200 meters is 1.08 (Lb-sec.) Energy is 778.1 (Ft/lbs). Comparing that to a more standard load producing 2137fps. with momemtum at 200 meters of 1.19 (Lb-sec) and 937.5 (Ft/lbs) of Energy. I used Sierra's V6 program to get these figures. Is a gain in momentum of .11 (Lb-sec) a big gain? I know from experience that the faster load will work better, that's a no brainer. I just have no experience with the numbers and would like to know for future reference how much it takes to make a significant difference.

Al,

For me, the question is, "How many times would an extra 0.11 ft-lbs/sec of momentum be enough to topple a recalcitrant ram???" However, how much more recoil are you collecting with the higher MV? Best way to topple truculent rams is to shoot the highest BC, toughest bullet that shoots accurately, with sufficient stability, out of your rifle. Lots of past testing with BPCR bullets as well as HP bullets has shown marginally stable bullets go haywire in "twitchy" winds and it doesn't take too much of a temperature drop (increase air density causing increase in nose drag) to turn a 1/4 MOA load into an MOB load (minute of berm.) Don't ask me how I know that.

If I remember tonight, I'll try to file down a new .264 139gr Silver Scenar, a .277 130gr Interbond, and a .277 150gr Interbond to put all in the same picture. I think I have .264 123 Scenars and .264 107gr Matchkings to add, too. I definitely want to see inside one of the 139gr Scenars to see if the new thinner jackets are possibly why I've been ringing rams at about the same ratio as the guys with 142gr Matchkings. I haven't really even though about recoil during a highpower match except during the 2009 highpower state match after a broke my left collarbone and two ribs in a crash of my GSX-R 750 motorcycle (eerily similar to Dan's story) three weeks before the match.

Maybe I should get around to calling Cauterucio soon. I'm not set up for moly coating now and all my other highpower silhouette bullets are moly, though. Hmm...

Thanks for all of the replies, Dan. And for your praise of my filing skills! 40 years as a machinist has taught me a thing or two about filing metal. I posted "FILE 101, how to scrap bullets" way back in the middle of page four of this thread.

I for one am glad to see you active on SC again. You add a heaping helping of knowledge with just the right amount of Tabasco sauce.

Hey Jason, this is a reminder to go scrap some more bullets.

DanDeMan, I GET IT! LIGHT SWITCH ON! I need a different bullet. Using Sierra's V6 ballistics program to compare different bullets I see if I go to a 180 RN instead of a 170 FN I can load to my reduced velocity of 1928fps and get the same momemetum at 200 meters as a 170 at 2137fps. There is even less wind drift. It's kind of tough with a 30-30 as there are not a lot of bullets to pick from.

Just for the record my 170gr. Sierra reduced load is 20.0 grs. of IMR SR 4759 fired out of a Winchester 94 Lone Star 26 in. bbl. It chronographs at 1928 fps.with a 5 shot extreme spread of 26fps. and a SD of 12. I can consistantly shoot 2-1/2 to 3 inch groups fired at a paper ram at 200 meters off the bags, using peep sights. I don't think that's too shabby. I also am using these at the turkeys. less wind drift!!!

I use 125gr. Sierra HP's at the C & P with 18.0 grs. of IMR SR 4759. At 50 meters they'll shoot into 1 hole.

Now that is all well and good if I can get 180's to shoot well. Man I wish I could get something other than a 117 RN Hornady for my 25-35. I love shooting that rifle, but it is too marginal at the rams. Last year at Raton on the first day I rang three rams due to wind blowing in to our face. I or no one can afford that at a national match.

Thanks for steering me in the right direction. Back to the test bench. I know I am talking Cowboy and not HP but this relates for the subject matter. If anyone wants to continue with Cowboy stuff continue on the Cowboy page.

Al Foust

Al,

Will the NRA allow you to use these bullets? They'd be my first choice for use in a lever-gun.

http://www.hornady.com/store/30-Cal-.30 ... 30-30-Win/

Bob,

I filed and sanded the 7mm, 181-gr Cauterucio to the center-line. I'm now not in need of cutting my finger nails for a while. The jackets appear to be thicker that the 175 SMK, no? I might have one of those around, will have to look later.

Dan,

No, even though they are designed for lever guns with tube magazines they won't allow them. I think the reasoning ( if there is any ) is that if they allowed the flex tip that someone might confuse them with ballistic tip types which are hard tipped, and may not be safe.

I did some rummaging and found a box of Sierra 308 180 RN in my stash. I'm going to give them a try.

Al

Dan, the only way to compare is by a photo of them side by side. They actually look like a standard SMK in thickness but again, it is tough to tell without them being next to each other.

Adding to my collection.

I need to get my camera fixed. Time to box it up and send it to Nikon for a tune up. Had to take this with my phone and it's not great lighting. You can see that the last bullet (Matchking) the core fell out of the jacket. I imagine if I poked at the other non-bonded cores they would pop out too. I also have a 7mm 139gr Hornady Interbond that I want to section.

7mm 168gr Berger Hunting VLD
7mm 120gr Sierra Matchking
6.5mm 140gr Berger VLD
6.5mm 139gr Lapua Scenar
6.5mm 140gr Hornady SST
6.5mm 120g Nosler BT
6.5mm 120gr Sierra Matchking

Nice work Dan. But that bullet looks more like the cross section of an American ICBM....nice long torpedo.

Holy crap, we are wrecking lots of bullets in the name of science and physics.

One thing that I see that is obvious is that all the "target" bullets are basically identical in jacket thickness. The Hornady SST and the Nosler stand out in their thickness and the Nosler is just a beast with that thick base. I'll have to see if I have a 140gr Nosler. The weight of that thick base is going to expend all of it's energy into the steel Ram rather than to the sides.

All right you ram knock-down calculation gurus, I have a question for you. What are the odds of being able to knock down rams using a .284 150gr SMK fired from a 7mm-08 using 36 gr of Reloder 15? Don't have chrono data, but book velocity is around 2475.

I would say... 9 out of 10 odds, probably better. Unless you use them in Phoenix. ;)

Free advice from this Guru. Bump up to 38.0 grs. if accurate in your rifle. Two of my guns love this load and it dumps our club rams reliably. I use it on all the targets when practicing.