OK every one, it's picture time again.



I sectioned three .284 bullets that I have used on rams to compare jacket wall thickness.

L to R...175gr. Hornady Interlock....168 gr. Sierra MK....162 gr. Hornady SST




Note the little interlock ridge on the two Hornady numbers. The Sierra could be called a thin jacket compared to the others. The SST is quite a bit thicker than the Interlock. I will admit I have lost plenty of rams in the past with the Sierra. I have not lost one at our range during practice with either of the Hornadys.That SST might just be the ticket to deal with the occasional stubborn St. Louis variety rams. Both of the Hornadys deliver very good accuracy out to 500M in several of my 7-08's. Hell, I might use these at the Nationals this year. I don't want to lose any!






These three jackets are the remains of 175 Hornady Interlocks after striking chickens last January during a practice session. They were found out a couple of feet shooter side of the rail. A testament to the strength of this bullets jacket.



Hey Dan, check your PM.

Bob,

Great Post!!! Thanks much for posting the pics.

Awesome post Bob!

I have been admiring the performance of the SST on Rams lately. They are priced right, they are accurate and they are tough bullet that is purposed designed to stay together. One of Dave Bonner's guns shoots them like a laser. I like them because I can also hunt with them.

I think the Swift Scirocco bullets probably have one of the thickest jackets, but they are kind of balls expensive. Same goes with the Nosler Ballistic Tips, they have nice thick jackets but are too expensive for my tastes for use in silhouette.

Here is an SST on the left, a Scirocco in the middle and the Nosler BT on the right. (not my photo)

Guy's, Lots of good info posted here. Dan the Man great to hear from you again. I have a ram related question for you. I have been shooting a lot of Cowboy silhouette and we too are playing the recoil vs. knockdown game. I know you have done extensive tests on momentum. I am not an engineer so what is a signifigant gain in momentum? I have recently done some testing with 170 Sierra 30-30's reduced to 1928fps. and the momentum at 200 meters is 1.08 (Lb-sec.) Energy is 778.1 (Ft/lbs). Comparing that to a more standard load producing 2137fps. with momemtum at 200 meters of 1.19 (Lb-sec) and 937.5 (Ft/lbs) of Energy. I used Sierra's V6 program to get these figures. Is a gain in momentum of .11 (Lb-sec) a big gain? I know from experience that the faster load will work better, that's a no brainer. I just have no experience with the numbers and would like to know for future reference how much it takes to make a significant difference.

Al Foust

Who the heck is this guy 'Theodore' that suddenly showed up?

Has anybody ever actually seen him?

Daniel, any chance you're going to be at PeEll, Winnsboro or SB/HP at Ratonl?

nomad wrote:Daniel, any chance you're going to be at PeEll, Winnsboro or SB/HP at Ratonl?

Ernie,

This year I'm only doing 3 out-of-state matches, Raton for BPCR Silhouette (July) and BPCR Target Rifle (August) and the Southeast Regional BPCR Championships north of Atlanta in October. Next year I'm planning on getting back into HP & SB Silhouette. But, I've been working on new rifles, chamber designs and the typical propeller-head stuff that gets me going.

Edited to add: How's the fine bride of yours doing? I thoroughly enjoyed kibitzing with her at matches over the years.

I think a better asked question would be "what is the best bullet for HP silhouette" and then select a cartridge to push it. After seeing the heavy construction of the .284 Hornady SST, this in the 7mmBR should be a real winner on the rams with it's slower impact speed.

Snake, I dont think the new Nosler 168gr. 7mm match bullet will be any better than the Sierra equivalent, just cheaper in cost. The graphic shown in their website shows only the standard thin jacket common to match bullets.

I just might have to buy a 7BR barrel for some serious testing with that 162 SST...

McA---You're probably right on the new Nosler. I use th 175 sierra HPBT without problems...the Gameking 175 worked fine just a little less accurate. Out of 100 ram hits on our range I lost one (north wind at about 30mph that day). The 140 7mm Sierra is a very hard little pill and just whacks white tails and leaves bright gouges in the chickens and pigs...a fella has to thin the charge with them at the close targets. In my rifle and OMalleys they group sub minute(close to 1/2)out to turkeys. That said the SST bears testing

Bob, I know that you would get less recoil with less powder out of a 7mm BR but you could also reduce the speed on your 7-08 to match what you would get out of a 7mm BR if all you want to do is test the 162 SST at ram distance at reduced speeds.
In my opinion the problem is not the caliber or bullet is how the rams are set up at most rifle ranges. I have been shooting rifles at handgun silhouette pistol ranges in CA and NM since the mid 90's and I can tell you that they take much better care of their targets and stands than most rifle silhouette I know. If pistol shooters ring one single ram they may as well pack their equipment and leave because they will not be in the shoot off. If the stands are not level (meaning if the rams are leaning forward) or if the stands are lose it will be harder to knock them over.
Also if the rams are not turned around frequently and if they are left facing the same direction all the time the rams will bend like bowls and will be much harder to knock down.
signed master of the oblivious

Dan,
Can you section a Carturucio bullet so everybody can see the jacket thickness? If you are not able section bullets, Bob McAlice would be glad to section for a side-by-side comparison. It would be interesting to see how the Carturucio bullet jacket thickness from the 30 caliber jackets stacks up to the red and green box bullets.

Dave Bonner

Master of the Oblivious...funny.

Oh Master, I might have to try IMR 4759 to slow down to 2200 FPS in the 7-08 case. I will have to consult a loading manual. The only negative I can for see would be close to or more than a full turn of the elevation knob to reach the rams at that speed.

Dave "the Arizona Both Gun State Champion" Bonner , those jackets are of the same thickness as any 30 cal MK, thin. Swaging .308 jackets down to 7mm or 7mm to 6.5 will not thicken the walls to any great degree. It is simple to section a bullet at home. I held them mid bullet lightly in the V-groove of my aluminum soft jaws on my vise. File away half way down and across, then reverse and file some more. Final sand the surface the long way on medium grit paper. It took me 15 minutes to destroy the three bullets. I wont have to trim my right hand fingernails for at least another month.

Now lets see some cross section pictures of those famed Lapua bullets.

Bob Mc Alice wrote: Master of the Oblivious...funny.

Don't forget the gravitational pull of a full moon on those rams!
I'm sorry I've never been to or even heard tell of a range where it takes 30 cal bullets to knock down rams, please tell us all where this home of the "super rams" is?

lone ringer wrote:

kevinbear wrote:Choose any 6.5 and you will lose more rams than with a 7mm

That only applies in places where the rams a hard to knock down ------- Really,your on top of it tonight LR! - MASTER OF THE OBVIOUS!!!!!

and you almost have to go to a 200gr 30 cal bullet to do a proper job at those places. Other than that the 6.5 is king and most if not all current records have been set with one.

Master of the Oblivious, I think it is the El Nina that is holding all the rams up, of course the moon phase might have a little to do with it.

Innocent

Innocent wrote:Master of the Oblivious, I think it is the El Nina that is holding all the rams up, of course the moon phase might have a little to do with it.

Innocent

LA NIÑA/EL NIÑO just blame it on the Mexicans for inventing the game. Signed Maestro de lo Obvio

Ok, so I think we have waned off of the 6.5mm vs 7mm debate and we have moved onto a... which bullet is best for rams debate. I personally feel this is a much better discussion. The RIGHT bullet in either caliber will "do work" on the Rams. I think we can all agree with that so lets get on with it.

McAlice undoubtedly has better files than I do. It took me about 30 minutes to file through these four 6.5mm bullets and clean them up. I am a big fan of the Nosler Ballistic tip bullets in 7mm 120gr. They switched them up some years ago and started using the 140gr jacket to make the 120gr BTs, hence the nice thick jacket seen below in the 6.5mm as well. These ballistic tip bullets are NOT varmint bullets. So many hunters have this idea in their heads that BTs are varmint bullets. Ok, back on topic... I don't think that jacket thickness is the one and only deciding factor, but looking back at the photos that Bob McAlice posted of the Hornady Interlock jackets after impact I think that a jacket that stays it one piece is that much more of the bullet that delivers it's weight to the Ram instead of disintegrating to the sides.

The Matchking was the easiest to file through, and the Nosler required the most effort. The Nosler jacket is a beast. I do love the Nosler BTs, but for me they are a little spendy although they are less than Lapua. I still think that the Hornady SST is a solid choice for Rams.

These are all 6.5mm
Order:
139gr Lapua Scenar - 120gr Sierra MK - 140gr Hornady SST - Nosler 120gr BT