Your thoughts on the Tikka T3......

[BCloninger]

Very generous of you Kevin! Would you like a nice 504?

[kevinbear]

Absolutely!!! 504's about half the size and weight of a 700 so I could go 100.00 on it.

[BCloninger]

Dang man! It's more accurate and has less recoil, too! I offer something better and you're crabbing on your offer!

Of course, if we were less picky, petty and opinionated we'd play golf!

[kevinbear]

100.00 is a really reaching on a 504, they are generally not thought well of, I bench tested one for guy a few months ago and couldn't bring myself to tell the him what I thought about it. Not wanting to be guilty myself of what some are, that was one specific rifle on a single day, it might be just fine or it could be one of a very small percentage of bad ones.

[Another Dang 9]

Well, here's what I think boys, if you sell more rifles than anyone else the 1 or 2% or whatever the percentage is of bad barrels or other problems translates into a much higher number, add to that a significant number of those people have a much higher expectation {read silhouette shooters}of a Remington 700 than they might of another brand results in the perception that 700's quality control is poor. The aforementioned situations result in people bashing Remington on online forums like this one, all the while the same people forget about the 95% of the 700's they had without any problems.
Here's my personal anecdote, back in the late 90's I bought a VSSF in 308 that wouldn't group smaller than 1.5 regaurdless of what i did to it. The odds were against me, I had some great shooting 700's before that one.
Skip ahead to about 4 years ago, one of my shooting partners and I bought 4 rifles 2- .223's and 2-7mm saum's , all four of those rifles group around .5 an inch. The 223's will hold that group for 10 shots, and they are cheap SPS's, try that with any other 425.00 gun.

Kevin, I think you hit it right on the head. 99.99% of the gun buying public barely know what the inside of there barrel is even suppose to look like. I can't even count how many times I've seen someone show up at the range with a new gun and haven't even ran a single patch down the pipe. I always carry a cheep take down rod and pass it down there for them. I just love to see the look on their face when the patch comes out of their new prize. Ya gota get your cheep laughs some place.

[kevinbear]

Ditto-ADN
Evidence of the high expectation of competitive and varmint shooters of the Rem 700 is easily demontrated by the astonishment of same people when they get lucky and their new brand X rifle is a tack driver, no such excitement ever occurs when buying a 700, it's expected. Hence when a rifle that actually has a problem get past quality control and into someones hands that can identify a problem they howl like cat that's had his tail stepped on!!! Like several people have made reference to here earlier I too have had some less than fruitful experience with Remington's customer service department, I cannot defend them. If it was my company I would replace them all. If you go far enough up the chain it's possible to get results but it's a painful experience.

[Another Dang 9]

I've heard of the same storys of marlin, that may be why there owned buy remington now. Which sucks cuz I really like all my marlins but since I don't have the same expectations of them as I do a bolt rifle....Oh well. To many gun makers here in Ma. have gone forever H&R, NEF, winchester(the receivers were made here). Oh well again.

[kevinbear]

Well after totally hijacking this thread I guess I should comment on the Tikka, not many accessories available for them but as a hunting rifle class gun that isn't a issue unless your a tinkerer. My concern would be that after wearing the factory barrel out do you replace the entire gun or are there gunsmiths that work on them. I've heard that some rifles made abroad such as the Brownings have the barrels epoxied into the action and cannot be removed without pernamently damaging the gun. I beloeve that Tikka T3's are made in Italy by Berretta, generally known for great designs but not immune to cost cutting measures such as plastic parts and fence post wood, neither one of which would effect performance. Too much emphasis has been put on accuracy and equipment in silhouette in my opinion, any 1" gun with a crisp 2lb trigger and repeatable scope will do unless your competeing in the top 10%, after all it's a mental game. If that's what you want buy it.

[BCloninger]

I'm told the T3 barrels are readily replaced (I had similar worries), but you're absolutely right about accessories: There aren't any. You need to like what you get, because that's all there is.

[Bob259]

............... Hence when a rifle that actually has a problem get past quality control and into someones hands that can identify a problem they howl like cat that's had his tail stepped on!!! ...............

I think all the US manufactures are that way. Same problems with S&W. I know a high ranking official there and we were told that for the number that comes back for function problems it is small as the 'average' shooter doesn't care and keeping a full staff of qualified gunsmiths on hand to test and tweak production guns is too costly. So they decided to send them out and only have a small staff of gunsmiths to work on ones people sent back Vs making sure they all worked flawlessly out the door. Say's a lot about the bean counters and mentality of US businesses, screw the customers and think only about profit and fat CEO salaries.

[kevinbear]

[quote="Bob259"][quote="kevinbear"]............... Hence when a rifle that actually has a problem get past quality control and into someones hands that can identify a problem they howl like cat that's had his tail stepped on!!! ...............[/quote]

I think all the US manufactures are that way. Same problems with S&W. I know a high ranking official there and we were told that for the number that comes back for function problems it is small as the 'average' shooter doesn't care and keeping a full staff of qualified gunsmiths on hand to test and tweak production guns is too costly. So they decided to send them out and only have a small staff of gunsmiths to work on ones people sent back Vs making sure they all worked flawlessly out the door. Say's a lot about the bean counters and mentality of US businesses, screw the customers and think only about profit and fat CEO salaries.[/quote]

Bob
Their not all that way, Leupold's quality control and customer service is outstanding, when Redfield was here in Colorado they were as well, there are good and the bad like anything else. Eagle Claw fishing equipment is based here in Denver, they have a company store at the mfg plant I've been to many times, never left there without a smile on my face.
Kevin

[Bob259]

Kevin, Thanks for reminding me to send a note to Leupolds Customer support on a problem that's been festering since last September and many notes in between... My last 2 orders from the custom shop have been anything but good experiences. Long story and not going to air bad news here as normally I would agree they are great to deal with.

For the most part my comments were related to the firearms industry in the US.

[Gator]

Ditto-ADN
Hence when a rifle that actually has a problem get past quality control and into someones hands that can identify a problem they howl like cat that's had his tail stepped on!!! Like several people have made reference to here earlier I too have had some less than fruitful experience with Remington's customer service department, I cannot defend them. If it was my company I would replace them all. If you go far enough up the chain it's possible to get results but it's a painful experience.

Just a final comment.
The feeding problem was actually a magazine problem and a slight modification to the lips of the magazine would solve it. It can be done with a Leatherman knife/file.
That was why I called them since it was so elementary I was really expecting they had heard about it so much they would have a stock answer/fix. That would have been great customer service at no charge to them and would have made me a happy camper thinking they gave a crap.
As I said, everyone at Nationals in Ridgway that year that I spoke with shooting a DM had a similar problem with the second & third shot. I didn’t have a problem with the 700 as such and it shot fine after you got it loaded. The magazine lips held the second and third round with a bit of a cant to the rear after the bolt passed over the rounds while extracting and when coming forward, the bolt rode over the rim and did not push the round forward. A slight change to the lips allowing the cartridge to tilt a little low on the tip solves the problem. Fixed all four magazines in about ten minutes. Unfortunately the problem arose at Nationals with my Wife shooting her second Highpower match (Hunter Class where the magazine must be used) with her NEW rifle and nearly was grounds for divorce. Didn’t resolve the problem until after coming home.
My level of pissitivity escalated when some secretary/operator stonewalled me at the door and all the time I knew they had to be aware of the problem. And I still believe that. My issue is customer service and not necessarily the product. ‘Nuff said, I love my Tikka……..

Over and out..
Gator

[BCloninger]

American workers build the best products they are allowed to make. In my opinion, things went wrong when accountants and MBA's became more powerful than skilled labor, technicians and engineers. Our current manufacturing model has strayed a long way from lean manufacturing principles, and our product quality has suffered.

I don't know how Tikka finishes the T3 to this level in this price point, because their "Ease of Doing Business" index is #16 of 183 countries while the US is #4 from the same source. The 700 should be better quality and cheaper.

My knock on the 700 is it comes from the factory 95% finished. A gunsmith or knowledgeable amateur can usually, easily, put on the final polish, but Remington could easily spend that little bit more to do that last 5%.

[Finprof]

I don't know how Tikka finishes the T3 to this level in this price point, because their "Ease of Doing Business" index is #16 of 183 countries while the US is #4 from the same source. The 700 should be better quality and cheaper.

The "ease of doing business" is primarily for entrepreneurs who want to start a new business. Some established businesses can do a very good job and have enough juice with the government not to get hassled. Valmet shotguns have always been a bargain with quality approaching Krieghoff at a fraction of the price. Likewise, the only way you can tell the difference between a Finnish Porsche Boxster and a German Porsche Boxster is by the VIN. They build them every bit as well as in Stuttgart but at a much lower cost.