Run the numbers Raton

[genphideaux]

Why don't we use one of the NRA's own tactics. Draft a form letter, by someone with better writing skills than I, list all the concerns in a 'professional' manner (list examples if we have them) and post here with the email addresses of who to send to and everyone copy and past the letter into an email and send it to the NRA Sr. Staff/Management.

It was brought to my attention that an email is not given the same attention as snail mail. This is why any correspondents I do now with the NRA competions division is mailed with a delivery conformation and signature. So far I am batting a 1000 on reply reponses.

[Innocent]

This is why any correspondents I do now with the NRA competions division is mailed with a delivery conformation and signature. So far I am batting a 1000 on reply reponses.

Dawg,
I alluded to this in my posting stating that it took 6 certified letters the final being to Charlton Heston (presidant at the time) to recieve my trophy from 1999 Nationals held at Raton.
I did not mention that prior to the letters, I had called and actually spoke with Greg Conner on at least 5 seperate occasions over the issue and was given a different excuse each time. This paticular nationals had numerous problems with the trophies "being delivered to the wrong address", "broken", etc... at least one other former shooter from South Carolina never recieved his trophy from this tournament.

I am strongly in favor of requiring at least signatures on the NRA's part for receipt of the letters and snail mail does tend to recieve greater attention, although possibly a combination would not hurt, as one of the biggest compliants about the NRA's service to that compeitiors is the 18th century lack of technology. I know for one that Greg Conner does not use email to communicate with the public, some comment has been made that he refuses to use this form of communication.

[Dee]

As someone new to the silhouette sport this post is sort of discouraging. From what I gather going to the Nationals is a venture in how to lose money and be aggrevated. I am not sure what all transpired as I was not there but just by the little I read here makes it sound like things are run by morons. Any thought I may have had about one day attending Raton for Nationals is long gone, for the same money I can go fishing in the Bahamas and have a great time guaranteed.

I realize the NRA is supposedly fighting for our rights but many of the things they do these days are questionable and I don't particularly care to be forced to be a member of an organization just to shoot. Whats the point of the dues and book fees and match fees if the shooters are not getting anything in return for their support. This is just a sport, little metal animals at set distances what says the NRA has to have any part in it at all. They obviously want all the parts of it ($$$ and control) without having to put out anything to those that back them. NRA points??? Please, what is someone going to do with 14 points. That almost equates the same as spending $200 on skeeball so you can win enough tickets for a .10 cent eraser. Really its almost more of an insult to the entrants of the match than anything else. Trophies should be given without question regardless of how many someone might already have, hey if you win another congrats keep it or toss it out I don't care but I would rather a trophy than some crappie points BS. Yes, I too have boxes full of trophies already not even being displayed, but those are from old interests not new ones.

It can be hard to support a organization that doesn't support you but claims to and also one that does things seemingly to support the rights of gun owners but in many instances the NRA has made concessions at the expense of our other rights and that can also be very hard to support.

Perhaps a seperate body formed for silhouette besides the NRA is needed if what I'm reading is correct. How hard could it be to go above and beyond what the NRA does now for silhouette shooters?

All you need for this sport is a gun and some targets, you do not need a now entangled bureacracy to enjoy this sport, if anything it almost appears counter productive to the sport to keep allowing them to run the show. Hopefully my set of targets will get here today and I can start running my own show at my house.

Really when you get down to it people that love to shoot will shoot with or without a sanctioning body simply because they love to shoot. Those same people are usually not the types to put up with BS for very long and as such they will just go shoot on their own and have fun. After all if you shot a perfect 40/40 at home you would know you shot a perfect score regardless of who was keeping track and thats all that really matters to most.

Dee

[Innocent]

Dee,
How observant, your comments are on track. BTW the Bahamas has the old PM back so the fishing permits may drop in price.

My efforts here are to guide the direction of the governing body at this time for the promotion of the sport. If there is total refusal to change then we are capable of strating and developing our own governing body but I hate to throw away the current efforts that have been done due to the poor visionary leadership that is currently in control.

I am for trying to change what is not working first. Most of us involved at the higher classes of the sport are in it more for the general harassment that we give and get at the matches, the winning is only icing on the cake. In any case, history has shown that winning trophies, plaques, pins are far more supportive of the sport than a "gift cedrtificate" to the NRA. Most of my trophies and plaques are donated back to junior programs to reduce that amount they spend on awards for the local club matches, but at least I have the pleasure of knowing that some youngster is proud of his or her accomplishment because a the trophy.

Mary

[Innocent]

Dawg,
One of the better writers that we have is Gator. I know that he has seen a lot of different nationals and is a great one for getting the point across.

Any other thoughts on word skilled persons.

Mary

[genphideaux]

Mary,

Alston Jennings is a great word smith, but I have not seen him address this topic. I think Gator is an excellent choice due to his vast experance.

I would like to interject that we keep this to a leadership attitude change and not an individual witch hunt. I know for a fact that you and me both have big axes to grind with the afore mention individual al be it for differant reasons they do tend to merge in some areas ie airgun silhouette.

[Innocent]

Dawg,
While a agree that all I wish for is an attitude change, I sincerely doubt that the zebra stripes will change. I do not wish for a witch hunt as I really have no grudges but my experience has shown me that this attitude is not going to change, short of some serious threats to the kingdom of power, and even then I doubt it will change much.

I'm game for any and all suggestions on word smiths, Alston has not seen the repeated issues that some of the others have, but I look forward to hearing his thoughts on what he did see at this years nationals.

Mary

[jneihouse]

Couple of things........

1. To new shooters who are tuning into this session I would say "Do not be discouraged"....This is a great sport, liberally seeded with quality individuals. I am proud to have gotten to know the folks in this sport, their integrity and strength of conviction is impressive. The reason we complain is that we hold ourselves to a higher standard than does the powers that be. It's kind of like going to what you believe to be a formal event and the folks running it are wearing sweats and tee shirts......We are just not on the same page and it is hurting the sport.

2. That there is a problem is self evident. It's not a witch hunt or the "sour grapes" complaining of a few disgruntled shooters. At the nationals you had a potential jury of some of the best of the best and all their suggestions were dismissed with a proverbial "wave of the hand". Personally, and I speak only for myself, I have never been to a match that was ran more poorly. The only redeming quality was the excellent job that Ernie Kuney did calling the match and the very tactful way he handled a lof of potential problems.

3. We need change at the highest level and the only way to get that is to go to the highest level and state our case accurately and fairly where no reasonable person would fail to agree.

4. I would suggest a petition, drawn up by one of the legal wordsmiths in our group that could be circulated either electronically or in some other fashion for signature. Then we could appoint one of our less volitile spokespersons to present this to the "powers that be".

Kitty

[dryfire]

Being in Canada, makes it somewhat diffcult to make comment. North of the 49th however we do follow NRA rules so here goes.
A few years ago Canadian rifle silhouette shooters decided to break from
the SFC,Shooting Federation of Canada, and form their own rifle silhouette body, the SRAC, the Silhouette Rifle Association of Canada.
The representation from the SRAC has been worse than even from the
SFC for one reason or another. It seems that for all the good intentions
at the beginning our organization has run out of enthusiasm and willingness to even communicate to its members and others.Example,
I had to find out from this forum where and when our Nationals were
being held. Wade Chipman,the director, was non-responsive to either email or letter.We pay our dues and see little to nothing in return, not even a newsletter. I am no longer a member.

In short I recommend ,as has been said already , that the NRA be kept as the parent organization but if the silhouette director is non-responsive then
work to replace them. From what I have seen on this forum there are lots
of individuals with concern for the sport who are willing to give constructive advice to the right candidate for new director.
It is sometimes necessary for a leader to take a strong stand and give
direction not at the risk however of being a blind dictator.
Regards
Andrew Patchett

[genphideaux]

Then we could appoint one of our less volitile spokespersons to present this to the "powers that be".Kitty

John,

I in no way ment to slight you, your are also an accomplished and printed word smith and would make another great candidate. As to the above quote, very tactiful on your part.

[Innocent]

John/Kitty,
Thank you for pointing out that a large number of us hold ourselves to a higher standard than is being presented at certain matches. I for one am not the type to run from mismanagement but to address the issue and attempt to make reseaonable changes.

I agree totally with giving a big hand to Ernie who went overboard to address the issues that were being mishandled and keeping the match running in a reasonable length of time. Fantastic job Ernie, Thank you, I will say that it was the most consistant calling of any national I have attended over the last ten years.

Mary

[Jim Beckley]

Well boys and girls, this may offend some and others not, but here goes. The NRA- Fighting for our gun rights doesn't have the same meaning as it once did. Now it means stuffing enough cash in a politicians pocket to get the weasel to vote our way. As far as the money not adding up as for what we sent in vs. what we received in return, see above about weasel.

Mr. Connor- I don't belive that a person can retire from the military, especially from the officer side (which I would bet Gregg was) without being a little oily himself. As far as the shooting at swingers, it was his call to make reguardless of any other input, and I'll have to say that we didn't have to wait around all day waiting for what or how we were going to do it.

Whittington Center-It is true that the hosting club has the pull on how things are ran. I remember once I was standing by Gregg and Ken H. who used to run the match in PA. Gregg told him that they were going to do reverse animal count for shoot offs, Ken said BS we are going to shoot off from B class up to MW, thats the way it was.

Shooting-When I first started silhouettes I was helping Jeff Boyer with a match in Mesa, I over heard one shooter moaning and groaning about something and saying he wasn't going to shoot anymore. I told Jeff about it and his reply was "Well I guess he doesn't want to shoot to bad". I don't have a whole lot of dollars but I'll bet everyone that I have that the best shooters at Raton wasn't thinking about anything but putting 10 hits on some kind of steel wheather it was standing or swinging.

Last Word-Credit Lee O'neil for this one "It's not the cure for cancer, it's not the whole world it's just silhouettes". This was the first Nationals that I have been able to shoot since 03. I didn't shoot the way I wanted to but I had a good time. Tubb had retired from silhouettes before I started shooting, so getting to meet him was something in itsself. Not to forget. Kitty, AJJ, The Irish, The S. Africans, Innocent, ect. ect.

[Dee]

I am not discouraged with regards to the sport itself. My targets are in and I will be shooting this evening . The question this really begs to answer is why did the pistol silhouette shooters feel the need to form their own sanctioning body to begin with? If the NRA was supporting them in the same capacity as the rifle shooters perhaps the answer is not so hard to determine. From what I understand the pistol following with the independant sanctioning is going pretty strong.

If only one person is responsible for making changes and that person refuses to address the majority's issues when presented to them then that person needs to be changed otherwise why even bother.

Its a lot like the Corporate BS world I work in. We go to meetings and they always seem to want input and ideas yet when you give them they are dismissed out of hand and after a while you end up wondering why you even are asked to meet at all much less give any input. As such I now still have to go to the meetings but I don't say anything because I really don't care anymore.

[jneihouse]

Dawg,

In no way do I take you suggestion as one to further tht sport. I am a reportedr, first of all, and have to objecteively report what I see. Writing talent is easily adopted by traained professionals..............Ie....Who what when and how......I have been published and paid and will continue to be as long as the 2nd amendment is in force.............Shoulld the NRA decide I'm or of a liability than an asset I'm done wih reporting to the Nationally published magazines. Mayhap I'll consider a more independetnt source such as Fieldd and Stream or Guns and Ammo, or whatever the outlet. I have been fortunate to be able to make a living and shoot regardless if I am paid or publiished, regardless of the sourch. If published, after I report on the Nationals, I't won't change me at all...... Fortnately, I make enought money in my day job to blow off any attempt at changing my story. Let's get this thing right so we can shoot without any clouds above.....

Kitty

[BlauBear]

Mr. Connor- ...As far as the shooting at swingers, it was his call to make reguardless of any other input, and I'll have to say that we didn't have to wait around all day waiting for what or how we were going to do it.

Jim, that's entirely correct but there is a difference between having power and using it prudently. Experienced leaders have earned the a chair at the table and ignoring them is at least poor judgement. As described, Mr. Connor's behavior was rude, and at least deserves an apology. I understand the necessity of command decision making and strong leadership in a firefight, but this was a civilian sporting event that calls for more finesse. If he cannot handle that part of the job he needs to assign it to someone that can.