Not if I can help it, I just started getting involved and I will do everything I can to promote it.....

malinois on Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:18 am

Maybe they need to hold the nationals in some place other than where its been held shooting the same two places gets a bit old...I miss the variety of the old championships like Crestline, Ft worth, Nebraska , Oregon and so on ..one always waited with anticipation to see where it was being held...plus it would give a chance to some of the locals that dont travel long distance...my two cents.

Problem is............. You have to have 10 banks of each animal for both SB and HP.

10 banks of SB isn't too big of a problem but there are damn few ranges in the US that have the room or the money for 10 banks of HP. Everyone bitched about the heat in Pheonix so there will not be another nationals there. If they could have the nationals in April or November they couls shoot there but another rule is 'not while school is in session'. Just like the US government, too many rules.

I have tried to review all 8 pages of posts as I try to figure out what is going on in NH. This is my first year as match director for my club, although I have been helping the other MDs heavily for the past 5 years. No one else wants to be MD. In our region, with one exception, clubs are encouraging. The one exception is a club that has become fixated on the issue that most silhouette shooters are not members of the club and thus, to give up an entire Sunday of range time to non members has become a point of debate. One could suggest that more MS shooters join the club. But, if you are a member of one "local" NH club, I don't think it is fair to ask or expect MS shooters to join ALL the clubs in NH. As long as you are an active member in one club, I'm satisfied.

Range closure, unhappy neighbors. Not yet. Environmental, range safety, not yet. Cost to run a match, not yet. Range availability, not yet. Cost of matches, at $7, I doubt it. IDPA pays $25 per run, I don't think MS is expensive. Fuel, sure. Economic downturn, employment issues, sure.

My take, two primary issues are at work from the NH point of view. The long time MS shooters who run the matches are burned out and it is no more fun. And, long time shooters are getting older and are losing interest. Thank goodness for Cowboy. Although one can say it diluted the 1/5th game, at least it gave veteran shooters something new to do.

Yes, we have new shooter clinics. But let's face it. Wolf used to be $175/case, now it is $450/case. An NS522 used to be $200, now a CZ is $425. Leupold scopes, Sightron scopes, I'm not as current but I suspect the trend is the same. I would speculate that our entry level equipment has experienced an inflation rate above the norm. My first rig was under $200. A newbie looks at Frankenguns, looks at entry level equipment, that can be discouraging. Although the tactical crowd does not seem to have an issue. Maybe they can rationalize under "self defense" budget. Can't use that argument with Silo gear.

But in NH, I think it is an issue of volunteerism and the lack thereof that creates burnout of veterans which reduces that enthusiastic effort to pack up 3 extra loaner guns at 6 am in the morning which then has to be put away at 6 pm when you get home from running a match. NRA paperwork, I don't think it is too ugly. Sure would be nice to be able to complete the post match postcard on line. I find that to be a PITA.

Still, we get 30 shooters to come shoot our broad range of NRA and Club silhouette offerings. We put up 240 animals at our club for each match. 80 1/5th, that's easy. 80 rimfire 1/2 scale targets. Some work. 80 pistol cartridge 1/2 scale....that becomes work. Yet of the 30, maybe 5 stay to help put them away. 2 guys put them out. Waiting until 8:30 to see who shows up to set 240 animals....easier to start at 7 and go slow.

So, I would say NH is holding its own but it is taking a toll on the few folks that run the programs. Some day, they will walk away and I see no one in the wings to keep running the programs. Then, its not dying, its dead. Ranges will be jumped on by other more popular disciplines, berms removed and poof. Game over. I guess it is a natural process. Offer any tactical oriented match and you can't find a place to park or a grey hair in the bunch. That seems to be where the next generation is focused. But that is another topic all together. Tactical silhouette.....I'd rather just hang up my rifle and pull weeds in the garden. Then again, what did 3P shooters day about Silhouette when it first came out. I was not around. I wonder if it is analogous.

So, bottom line, attend every match you can to support the club and the MD. This in turn supports the program. Bring new shooters, be the person with the loaner gun. Be an RO for a few hours. Offer the cut the grass. Find out when the MD gets to the range match day and be at the gate when he arrives.

PS: all posters should display their location. I read a post and it would be nice to know their location so I can relate it to what I may know about the clubs/shooters in the area.

Jud,

When I was MD, I had the OK to email match report cards for our local matches. (I got tired of being told that the postcards I had mailed had 'never arrived' and I wanted an email record of transmission.)

Call whoever now receives them and, if you're told that they must be snail mailed, call Greg.

Well with attendence being what it has been lately....maybe its time the 10 bank min be relaxed to open it up to other clubs again. It makes no sense to require that if the competitor numbers are not there. anyways if I remenber right the smaller clubs did put on a better show. Nothing wrong with Raton or Ridgeway and I have enjoyed shooting there on a few occations..but variety is the spice of life and I think its time for a diffrent venue.

durant7,

Not that I'm ignoring everything else you wrote but where can you buy Wolf ammo for $450/case? The best I have found is about $520/case for the Target and about $750 for the Extra. Places that never seem to have it in stock sell for less than $520 but if I was selling it and didn't have it stock, with no back orders, I'd sell it for $300/case.

nomad wrote:Jud,

When I was MD, I had the OK to email match report cards for our local matches. (I got tired of being told that the postcards I had mailed had 'never arrived' and I wanted an email record of transmission.)

Call whoever now receives them and, if you're told that they must be snail mailed, call Greg.

Ernie, just two weeks ago I got a nasty gram in the mail from Ms.Chin stating they had not yet received my April, May and June match report cards. I mailed every one as usual along with my clubs required report. I did them again on the provided cards and wrote in big letters on the complaint letter....I HAVE NEVER FAILED TO SEND IN A MATCH CARD. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY FUTURE DELINQUENT MATCH REPORT COMPLAINTS. GET WITH THE PROGRAM AND MAKE THIS AN E-MAIL TYPE REPORT.

Shit, that was more than a buck and a half I lost on stamps!

PhxShooter, if it is that high than my point is even more clear, the cost to get into the game has gone up. When I started we had the original Winchester Dynapoints which were thought to be mfg by Winchester or Olin Australia. They shot great for the new shooter. My point is, bulk ammo that was cheap, available and you could get started. Today, I advise new shooters to get together and buy a case of CCI StdVel as the cheap ammo of choice.

If the local clubs don't create local interest, it does not matter a tinkers damn whether the rifle racks at Raton are beat up. I don't think that contributes to why the sport is dying. Local clubs feed the Nationals. Sure, the number of North East shooters is small and they tend not to travel. But it's where I am and what we've got. I got one new shooter to buy a CZ-452 this year....which of course is no longer produced. The NS-522 is no longer imported. Rem 541s are now valued guns. Even 39A are getting expensive. Starting the game is much more expensive than it used to be. Opening the rules has made the "perceived" barrier even higher for a newbie checking things out.

I wonder if making a 3rd class for 1/5th would be a good idea. Bone stock USA mfg rimfire. Make it a "spec" class where the gun is stock. Put a factory seal on the trigger and all you can change is LOP. No power above 12x. CMP ammo only. I know, crazy idea, it is the concept. Make it a sport where it is all shooter and not the equipment and have a "spec" class. Kinda like the SBCB was until the Redfield sight issue poisoned the well. If a new shooter wants to shoot SBR or SBHR with their spec gun, great. If a Master shooter wants to play in "Spec" class, sell a spare scope and buy a full spec rig.

New blood is what we need. I wonder if we have outsmarted ourselves. If I looked at a rack of Pharr stocked guns I would have likely never given it a try. Kids are expensive! But to be clear, helping out MDs and the club is first priority IMO. Ensuring we figure out how to attract new shooters and reduce the $$$ needed to start the game is second priority. Staying positive and up beat is by all means the most important. I am pretty happy we have 30 shooter come to shoot. I am told we used to have 45. I am doing my best to get back there!

Why not come to the NH Regional and talk up the sport with our new shooters!

Bob, I have been emailing my jury reports all year. They have a downloadable PDF form on their web site. I fill it in and print it; you can't save a PDF. Then I scan it and save it so I have a copy on file and a paper copy. Then I can email it to Greg. It may seem like a lot of work, but I will do 3 or 4 matches at a time, and I can fill in 1 form and print it then just change the date and shooter numbers for the following matches. Plus I get the satisfaction of not using snail mail. Al Foust

durant7,

While I like the concept of a box stock class with rifles manufactured in the USA I think that would be pretty limiting. I started thinking about it and looking around for USA mfg rimfire rifles that might be worthwhile for the game. Very limited products.

Browning T-Bolt Target Varmint MSRP $750-800.
Ruger 77/22 Bolt Action various stocks MSRP $830-930
Ruger 10/22 Target $500-600
Marlin XT-22 MSRP ???? (if they're even making guns any more)

And that's about it. Nothing from Remington, Springfield, Thompson/Center Arms, Winchester, Colt, Kimber or S&W that I can find. There may be other US manufacturers but I can't think of them right now.

In addition to the rifle the shooter will still need to get a decent repeatable scope and that adds another say $200-400 for a fixed 12X? Let's face it, this game ain't cheap if you want reasonable equipment to start out. I lucked out because a friend GAVE me a Anschutz 64S with a fixed 12X Leupold to shoot as long as I want it. Not a bad way to begin.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm not sure the US mfg box stock rule would necessarily benefit the new shooters.

Thanks for the invite to NH but that's a long drive from Phx and I quit flying. Spent too long as a sheep dog to become one of the sheep.

More of my 2 cents:
People at any club have to set up a SB range. To find people to take charge of a project is another story.

I know in IL and IA, there are SB Silhouette ranges and when the person who was running it leaves, no one will replace that person and ends up shooting for fun. There are no more sanctioned matches in IL. Two clubs I know only shoot for fun. No one wants to take over the sport at their clubs for sanctioned matches.

Our director left last year for a pistol sport, which was more fun for him at age 32. I volunteered to be his replacement in the middle of our season. 10 years b/4 him, there was a big fight and several dropped out of the sport at our club.

Our matches are at 5PM every Thursday and have one monthly Saturday match. We have 5 faithful shooters every week out of possible 9. The other club in our state and 1.5 hours drive from ours, has 5 with classification books, with 15 more that prefer to shoot for fun only every Monday eve.

Last week on our club website, I posted an invite to join us on Thursday Eves.

I am going to tack up the same invite tomorrow on our Silhouette range. We have many plinkers that use our range. We do have a range storage box with a mixture of animal sizes our guests can use. Several people that I have met on weekends at our range, say they can not make our 5-5:30 time frame due to work. I am rethinking those hours and should list it as 5-7 and come any time by 6pm.......something like that. Try it and see what happens.
More of my 2 cents.

The Match director here had what I think was a wonderful idea! We also have a lot of plinkers and as a way to attract them she went out and got the club to buy IHMSA 3/8" scale .22 handgun targets.

We use them for the people who don't want to shoot the 1/5" scale NRA targets.

We typically have full relays on the big "Fun" Targets, even when we have an approved match. We ALWAYS include the big targets as a fun match regardless if we are having an approved match or not.

They are a big hit with people and still pose a challenge for many new shooters.

It seems to help stir interest with non-silhouette shooters/plinkers.

All good thoughts and ideas. Although my gas tank of energy is below the quarter mark. We'll see how our Regional goes. I want to be optimistic. When I first moved to NH our regional attracted folks from NY, PA, NJ and ME back in 2007. For reasons that escape me, those shooters no longer make the journey. Perhaps they have retired. Perhaps they did not care for the venue. Lack of food? Beer truck? Plaques were not sent promptly? Who knows, they just no longer attend. I would love to know why the event has become a NH and Canada event.

I debated dropping club rifle (scope and iron sights on 1/2 scale) but if you look at the attendance numbers, I would be cutting a third of the shooters from the roster. Not something that seems prudent when you are trying to grow the sport. Perhaps the serious shooters don't care for the "club" shoot occurring during an NRA regional. Something I will again consider next year. I was also thinking of turning it into a Fall Foliage Granite State Classic. But if my dates are wrong, travelers will lynch me.

I do like the idea of getting a set of the 3/8th scale. We don't have them and to be honest I have never seen a set. Maybe that is a prudent way to migrate folks from 1/2 to 1/5th. We use PC 1/2 targets for club scopted which means you have to hit the ram in the horn or edge of butt if you want it to fall. 3/8th could be an alternative.

As for the spec rifle, it was a thought. I was thinking about the Savage Mk II as the candidate. I was also trying to be pro USA. I had toyed with creating a "barn gun" classification. Bring anything you want but you have to be willing to sell it for $200 if someone wants it.

Another idea is to create a "national score database". I believe golfers can create an account and enter their scores at various courses and effectively create a database of their results which can be compared with others who may have played the same course. Something to create some fun competition and create an awareness of other clubs and their programs. Has the NRA ever shared the data they collect re number of shooters? When I fill out my card, half the shooters are not listed because they all shoot club which is non NRA. They might be surprised at how many folks are actually playing a variant of the game. Of my 30 shooters in July, only 20 shot an NRA approved match. 33% are "uncounted" and those are the future of Silhouette IMO. I post all my results and attendance on my blog so it is public info.

I wonder if 9mm has gone up as much as 22LR. I visited with a long time MS shooter today and his negative outlook seemed to come from how much ammo is taking out of his fixed income.

Below is the range for those trying to figure out how we can shoot so many different silhouette disciplines in one day. 240 animals! I am not going to let silhouette die if I can help it. But it is a team effort. Showing up is key. Helping new shooters is also key!

http://tinyurl.com/9pkz4fm

durant7 wrote:
As for the spec rifle, it was a thought. I was thinking about the Savage Mk II as the candidate. I was also trying to be pro USA. I had toyed with creating a "barn gun" classification. Bring anything you want but you have to be willing to sell it for $200 if someone wants it.

Another idea is to create a "national score database". I believe golfers can create an account and enter their scores at various courses and effectively create a database of their results which can be compared with others who may have played the same course. Something to create some fun competition and create an awareness of other clubs and their programs. Has the NRA ever shared the data they collect re number of shooters? When I fill out my card, half the shooters are not listed because they all shoot club which is non NRA. They might be surprised at how many folks are actually playing a variant of the game. Of my 30 shooters in July, only 20 shot an NRA approved match. 33% are "uncounted" and those are the future of Silhouette IMO. I post all my results and attendance on my blog so it is public info.

Jud

I like these two ideas.

The first may help to keep competitors interested. I'd love to see the NRA just keep and publish a record of shooters classifications and perhaps dates of acheivement. The second "barn gun" would encourage new shooters to shoot what you have and avoid costly outlays

well, well...guess what I got in the mail again today. Another "UNREPORTED TOURNAMENT NOTICE" from the NRA's Mrs.Chin. Bless her heart. This time for the July HP at CRC. I SENT IT IN !!!!! Another wasted stamp. Apparently she did not understand my hand written note that I will not respond to these notices anymore. She kindly provided me with another report card with an un stamped envelope. I crumpled the mess and tossed it in the trash. Am I the only one here getting this hassle ? I will try Al's report method...NEXT YEAR...if I don't throw in the match director towel before.