Bad Winchester primers?

[Trent]

Hey all,

What would you call this? I had 9 rounds out of 70 shots do this yesterday at our high power match. 7-08 130gr SMKs over 37.5gr Varget.

This is old REM R-P brass that has an unknown number of firings on it (20+ loadings). The primer pockets on these are still mostly snug except for 5-6 loose-ish ones. I seated a new primer into the two cases that are in the photo just to verify and the new primer was nice and snug. A few guys at the range thought that it was gas escaping around the primer, but to me it looks pretty clear that the primer itself failed but maybe it's possible that the hole in the primer is the result of the gas cutting. I can't see any evidence on the primer below the hole of gas blowing by though. There is however a crack in the primer wall from each hole that runs down to the edge of the primer opening (like a fracture). Do I have a bad lot of Winchester primers? I have just over 4000 of them left but I may need to call Winchester and ask for them to replace them. It fire-etched the shit out of my bolt face.





Hard to see but there are 9 new divots in my bolt face of varying depth.

[Trent]

My Google-foo search results show that I am not the only person having, of have had, this problem with Winchester primers.

My lot no. DHL766G

[yankee]

yep bad primers. We called it a pin hole in the fold of the cup. Had this problem 20 years ago with Federal primers. They said it was not there problem that they may not have been stored properly. No more federal primers in my drawer since then. Switched to cci and no problems since then. still using the action. You may want to polish the rough craters a bit on the bolt face. Be interesting to see what Winchester does to make you happy. Keep us informed
Yankee

[Bob259]

We had a few interesting ones at our sight in days out here we do for the hunters. 1 was a Renington primer blew out and pressure signs and I had some with Weatherby Factory ammo (300 Weatherby Mag) that had a few with pressure signs and one was so bad it was hard to open the bolt and blew the primer right out. All this with off the shelf ammo, not good. And not to forget a brand new Remington (beautiful rifle) that wouldn't chamber the ammo, right caliber, etc. but Winchester top of the line hunting ammo. Went through two boxes and got 4-5 to chanber OK, but not the rest. Makes you wonder. Primers all were the gold ones like in your picture .

[Snake]

This is an uncommon problem. In addition there seems to be an inordinate number of duds. OMalley had this radius piercing and a chewed up bolt face and contacted Winchester via telephone and mail....they replaced his bolt. A number of years ago i and a few others had the same problem with federals...they gave us the TS. The new (copper colored) winchesters are made in Mexico....the draw on the cup sucks

[Trent]

I remember O'Malley cussing and swearing up a storm at the regional year before last. He swore that he would never use Winchester primers again. The only problem I have had with Winchester primers up till now was the fact that they are a smaller diameter then the old nickel plated primers and sometimes it can be a little loose in some brass that is prone to primer pocket stretching.

I think I'll stay with Tula primer from now on even though they are so tight my hand get sore after 100 cases.

[Jerry G]

You do have BAD primers tall guy.

[Snake]

And I have never had a problem with CCI benchrest primers. In fact loads with them over the chrono always have the lowest SD. There are thicker and harder than most and one of the bench guy theories eschews them because they don't squish out enough to make a good seal I like 'em ditto with others exceptions duly noted

[Bigfoot]

Did Winchester take care of you Trent?

I'd be besides myself if the bolt on my rifle got screwed up like that. It's unforgivable.

[Trent]

I haven't got off my butt to call them yet.

[RBriscoe]

There are several things going on. The blowout at the radius can be the result of porosity in the metal, though this is an uncommon cause of the problem. More commonly the problem is the result of improper heat treatment (annealing) of the cup in the manufacturing process. There are a series of draws to arrive at the final cup. In my experience with this type of failure in primers from a number of manufacturers and subsequent discussions with their people, this is a not uncommon problem. Another source of failure is the plating process that can result in hydrogen embrittlement which causes the same problem. Some manufacturers have stopped plating the cups because of problems such as this as well as the cost of the process and disposition of waste materials which is becoming increasingly expensive.

As if all that were not enough, I have encountered Winchester primers that are undersize. They should be a bit over 0.210" OD. (Winchester cites a minimum OD of 0.210".) Unless Winchester has improved their quality control, their primers are at or below minimum dimensions and are loose in brand new, unfired Winchester brand razz and will cause blowby completely around the primer. I see some of this in your photo in addition to the actual blow out at the radius.

As an aside, there is no one who has a completely successful process of inerting ("killing") primers. Covering them with water, WD-40, various oils and other concoctions simply have not been entirely successful. I mention this because I have a few thousand undersize Winchester primers left.

Your bolt looks like a Remington. If you have rebarreled the action, Remington does not ordinarily replace[edit] bolts in [edit] rifles that do not have original factory barrels. Your options are to not worry about it, get an aftermarket bolt or get the bolt repaired by an experienced 'smith. One way is to bore out the center of the bolt face and replace it with a suitable material. The decision then is whether to have a standard size firing pin hole drilled in the bolt face or one of the 1/16" firing pin holes drilled and have the firing in fitted to it. Personally, I prefer the small firing pin holes, but some people are of a different opinion in the matter.

I have quit using Winchester primers because they were consistently undersize, but I have not measured any recently.

Cheers,

Rick

[Trent]

Rick, thank you for all the additional information.

I had some Winchester brass with only a couple loads through them that had already been previously prep'd with these Winchester primers so I thought I would go ahead and use a few of them for this weekend's HP match for my ram loads (38gr IMR 4064 and 168 SMKs... light load). I wanted to rule out the old beat up brass I was using last month as the problem. I was pretty sure that the brass wasn't the issue. Well sure enough I had 5 primers out of 30 shots rupture the same as I showed previously. I would say definitively that the primers are defective. With this info I will be calling Winchester with the lot number.

I might be able to get away with using them in a lower pressure cartridge like my 30-30 but I don't need 5,000 primers for that thing.

[RBriscoe]

Trent,

You are welcome. I am sorry you had this experience, but, unfortunately, it seems to happen to all of us sooner or later. Don't feel like the lone ranger.

Rick

[Trent]

Winchester is having UPS pick up the 4300 primers I have left in this lot. Also sending them the fired cases with the ruptured primers. I hope the turn around time is expeditious... I only have about 800 Tula large rifle primers at the moment. I don't like my stock that low.

[Bob259]

Winchester is having UPS pick up the 4300 primers I have left in this lot. Also sending them the fired cases with the ruptured primers. I hope the turn around time is expeditious... I only have about 800 Tula large rifle primers at the moment. I don't like my stock that low.

Good keep us posted on what they do for you. I have 5k of them in a brand new case I have not used.