How do I submit rule changes to the NRA Silhouette Committee

[Innocent]

It should be noted that you were told by several others long time shooters at local club matches that the stock would not fly in a big match Dustin. So I admire your attempts to change, and while I agree with some of your thoughts, ppkny is correct, letters and other arguments have not gone far on several of your points. Keep trying, but learn the rules before you try to override a jury by a one man decision again. Politely to an attorney...why do we have a Supreme Court when Obama can make the decision?

Mary

[dustinflint]

One you need to shoot in more matches away from your local area to start to understand the dynamics of the organization.

If by the "organization", you're referring to the NRA, I don't really want to understand its dynamics; I just want to submit some proposed rule changes.

Two, you need to read and reread the rules and realize the problems you caused at the air rifle match, so in short run some significant matches before being so adamant about changes.

This doesn't really have anything to do with the air rifle match in Winnsboro, I agreed with the jury decision there. Also, I'm not that adamant about changes; I can get a factory stock if need be. Note my message to Kitty:

I am certainly not married to these changes and it wont bother me one bit if none are adopted, I just think those are changes that would be good for the game.

I agree that we have professionals shooting in the sport and it is difficult to win against them, and it is even more discouraging to see them constantly winning all top prizes then, selling them on the web the following week.

I really think the High Master category is something that would benefit the best shooters. It also would give the very good shooters a class that they could win. Mostly, I just think it'd be a great goal to push toward. Under my proposed rule, I would be a High Master in both Sporter and Open air gun. I think it'd be more fun to be a "High Master" than just a "Master." Maybe that's just me...

We need to work on providing more awards for the lower classes, encouraging the older experienced shooters to mentor new shooters. Personally I don't care about more trophies (dust collectors) but a mug or something that I can use is appreciated, but I do know that the awards are important for the classes below master.
The point of a Grand or High master class has been bought up several times over the years and fallen on deaf ears. The point of not letting a person win both class and catagory awards has changed over the years, and I have been on a push to change it back to one or the other, but not both to the same person in the same match.

I completely agree...

As for change to accept aftermarket stocks on air rifles, it will probably not go anywhere as except for a few small pockets in the country, air rifle is not shot a lot, in fact there are no air rifle nationals for silhouette. One of the major sore points between David McLemore and Greg Conner....a bit of history, Greg stated if we could get 70 shooters to a state or regional air rifle match he would allow that club to host an air rifle nationals the next year. This was accomplished at Winnsboro, and the follow year we were preparing for the first air rifle nationals, and Greg Conner decided only a few months before to cut it from the plans and budget, in which there were no costs to the NRA budget for it as David and crew had already worked out the finances on it.

That's too bad, there should be an air rifle silhouette nationals. We could host it at our range in Baton Rouge!!!

So your call to Greg Conner to have him tell the chief range officer to let you shoot an aftermarket stock in the match after the jury had already ruled it illegal based on the current rules, informed you of the process for filing a protest to the NRA protest committee was uncalled for, created a tremendous string of protests to me and was as you found out could not be done by the rules.

Again, this is not about the Winnsboro air rifle match, but since you brought it up: I was perfectly happy to go along with the jury's decision, I would have decided the same way. However, I was told by a member of the jury to call Greg to see if he could shine some light on it, so I did. I had no idea that anyone would throw a fit about it. I didn't even ask him to change the jury's decision, I just wanted clarification on the rule and to know whether I could get the gun approved for future matches. Greg said that he would try to approve it for the Winnsboro match. He was put in a tough position and tried to help. I can't imagine that enough people cared to really create "a tremendous string of protests." I imagine it would have been worse if I had actually shot a decent score. Under my proposed rule, that situation would not have happened.

I am now in the process of filing a complaint to the NRA for having a director that apparently feels that he alone can override a jury decision in a match.

That sounds like a waste of time. If the NRA is as obtuse as most of the shooters say, I can't imagine that a complaint is going to do any good.

Dustin

[dustinflint]

dustinflint,
I commend you on your effort to initiate change but I hope you're in for the long haul and not just writing letters because of your bad experience at the Southern Nationals. Real change will take a lot of effort and if you are serious we will continue to see some progress. If we don't continue to hear about your fight for rules change I'll draw my own conclusions.
ppkny

ppkny,

I hope I don't disappoint anyone if i don't go to the ends of the Earth to make this happen. I think these are minor rule changes - basically worth submitting to the committee and see if they adopt any of them. I'm not going to start a letter campaign and spend a bunch of time with this.

I do think it's important that the Sporter air rifle rule is changed because it excludes shooters as is, but I can easily get a factory stock for my rifle. What happened at Winnsboro really has nothing to do with it. I didn't shoot well enough for that decision to matter.

Dustin

[duckgumbo]

I certainly hope that everyone understands each individual's right to free speech and it looks like there is a lot of "jawing" back and forth about the rules changes Dustin proposes; however, I am glad that all the responses have been with the upmost respect. Something I usually lack in.

Dustin you can try for a NRA National Aire Rifle Silhouette Match in Baton Rouge as you will probably be more successful than Winnsboro Gun Club since Mr. Connor has a distinct dislike for us and the feeling is absolutely mutual. I have attended NRA National matches in Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Mexico and the Competitors meetings are a joke.

In my opinion the NRA does not give a rat's ass about the common shooter or anyone trying to break into the sport. WGC has been successful because we actually care about each individual that attends and want them to have the best time that they can and be able to win the same awards that the top shooters win. We also encourage new shooters but primarily the Junior shooters. When Greg Connor retires I may just get interested in the sport again and traveling to other matches. I retired from shooting a few years back. I say bring back the chin gun that many of us have invested in and have sitting in our houses collecting dust. What the problem was is that the shooters that did not like it could not even beat the individuals that shot them even if they were shooting a rifle on a 2X4 stock.

Too may rules have spoiled a lot about this sport.

I will say to all that Dustin and Jerry Tureau are going to work with WGC to bring a NRA Regional match to Winnsboro in conjunction with our Party. Stay tuned for some exciting news soon after the principals can iron out the details.

[dustinflint]

David, thanks for the reply.

I certainly hope that everyone understands each individual's right to free speech and it looks like there is a lot of "jawing" back and forth about the rules changes Dustin proposes; however, I am glad that all the responses have been with the upmost respect. Something I usually lack in.

I'm open to anyone's opinion. I have very thick skin; it's hard to hurt my feelings. I'd rather get useful feedback than have someone hold back for fear of offending me.

Dustin you can try for a NRA National Aire Rifle Silhouette Match in Baton Rouge as you will probably be more successful than Winnsboro Gun Club since Mr. Connor has a distinct dislike for us and the feeling is absolutely mutual. I have attended NRA National matches in Ohio, Pennsylvania and New Mexico and the Competitors meetings are a joke.

We'll give it a shot. If the NRA isn't interested, we can just have a regional and declare the winner the national champion.

In my opinion the NRA does not give a rat's ass about the common shooter or anyone trying to break into the sport. WGC has been successful because we actually care about each individual that attends and want them to have the best time that they can and be able to win the same awards that the top shooters win. We also encourage new shooters but primarily the Junior shooters. When Greg Connor retires I may just get interested in the sport again and traveling to other matches.

It looks to me that WGC has done more for silhouette than the NRA. I certainly had my best silhouette experience at the Southern Nationals this year; even though Pat Steiger was really mean to me the whole weekend.

I retired from shooting a few years back. I say bring back the chin gun that many of us have invested in and have sitting in our houses collecting dust. What the problem was is that the shooters that did not like it could not even beat the individuals that shot them even if they were shooting a rifle on a 2X4 stock.

David, the chin guns were before my time. Were they really that much easier to shoot than any other type of gun? Why don't we just have an open class in smallbore like we have in air rifle?? No rules on the gun. If you can carry it to the line and shoot it freehand, it's legal. It works in air rifle and we'd all get to shoot more!! Plus, the rifle would not have to be certified.

I'll even propose Rule 3.2.2:

3.2.2 - Smallbore Open Silhouette Rifle - Any rifle chambered for only factory loaded .22 caliber short, long or long rifle rimfire cartridges. Hot loads,
such as "Stingers", are not permitted. See Rule 3.17. Rule 3.15 does not apply to open class smallbore rifles.

Too may rules have spoiled a lot about this sport.

If the NRA is not working for the silhouette shooter, we could always form a new governing body.

I will say to all that Dustin and Jerry Tureau are going to work with WGC to bring a NRA Regional match to Winnsboro in conjunction with our Party. Stay tuned for some exciting news soon after the principals can iron out the details.

It's going to be a GREAT match!! We just need to think of a name. (Maybe that's a good idea for another thread>>>)

Dustin

[Innocent]

Dustin,
By all means approach the NRA rules committee on changing rules. I did not intend to point out anything other than there is a lot for you learn yet in the dynamics of the NRA (organization) than you have apparently seen as of now.

The High Master, professsional or any other name you apply to those that have the time/means to train daily and all the tools provided is a great idea. Cathy is not the only nor the first I have seen in this sport, I refer to the professional class as I have seen her refuse to allow photos taken of her while competing in a match with another ammo due to her own firing pin failing so she had to finish with a borrowed rifle/ammo. All photos allowed were after the match, with her own rifle.

As for hosting an air rifle nationals at any range, I am all for it and look forward to competing in it.

As for hosting a regional or other shooting event at Winnsboro, I look forward to shooting!

As for complaining to the NRA about Greg Conners behavior, if I ignore it, the behavior will only get worse. Greg has an extreme dislike for me anyway as I am the only one that forced his hand on a nationals trophy that he failed to provide for a championship in Raton. I did it not because i wanted the trophy, but because the person that took me to that match would have appeared at NRA headquarters and caused some serious issues had I not gone with certified letters all the way to Charlton Heston (president of NRA) at the time, due to the fact that Greg chose to ignore my letters to him.

As for a member of the jury suggesting you call Greg at the time of the match, they were the primary ones that objected to me about you doing that, as the response was "Why have a jury if Greg is going to override any decision we make without being present and observing our side of the ruling?" So if it was suggested by a member of the jury, then maybe you misunderstood a reasonable time to execute that comment.
I wish you luck in your rule change suggestions.

Mary

[jneihouse]

I did not realize that there was a dust up at the air rifle matches at Winnsboro this year...due to health reasons we opted to not participate and I confess that I didn't even make it up to that end of the range, something I usually do because I like to visit with my friends...I've served on seveal juries, a dustup is the last thing you want, hate to hear it crept into the "last dance".

I have been to several of the competitor's meetings in both smallbore and highpower and have heard several well documented requests for change put forth by respected shooters....typical reaction is "We'll take it to the committee and see what they want to do"...I agree that it has, sadly, become largely a huge waste of time....Greg Connors is a hard individual to understand..he has tough job and I wouldn't want to do it...at times he shows compassion and a sincere interest in the shooters in the sport, other times he is unapproachable....I try to steer clear of him as much as possible.....If I get upset it carries over to the shooters I coach and spot for...

We do need to do more in the way of trophies/recognition of the shooters in the lower classes. Great arguments for that have been made and ignored, so what can we do? I understand that it cost money to give trophies, but I think most of you that have been around will agree that the return we see at the NRA nationals comparing the cost of entry fees to trophies "paid back" to the different classes is way lower than other venues we shoot. The NRA does reward the Open Class National Champion well, but the lower classifications get very little. This needs to be fixed, especially for the younger/newer shooters that would like to have something more significant that the envelope Bob259 referred to as a memento of their day on the "big stage".

Kitty

[Innocent]

John, I agree that we need to do more than the envelopes delivered on the big stage, especially only to those that win 1st in class, all others need to report to the office to collect their 'prize'.
That is why I made an attempt to provide some additional awards for the air rifle events at the last dance, as typically a large portion of the shooters in that event are walk ons, due to lack of knowledge as to exactly when they will arrive, no air rifles etc. Thus the "Last Dance Beer mugs".
As for the nationals, they have a pretty good idea down to the last 5% of shooters as to how manny will be there, and what classes they are in, at least two weeks in advance. Plenty of time to order and recieve awards for the number of shooters. My experience in talking with many persons involved with NRA adminstration (for other reasons, such as WOT, Ladies Days etc.) I find that very few of the personnel are aware of the poor selection of awards for the nationals. It appears to me that the decision is up to Greg Conner to develop his awards based on his budget. While it is well known that for some time there has been very little interest in the competitive shooters by the NRA, maybe we should speak up again to the new director of competitions.

Yes, there were two official protests at the air rifle match in Winnsboro, both were decided by the jury, ruling against the persons with the rifles. Both were informed of the right to protest to the NRA protest committee in writing as the rules call for. One chose to try to override the jury decision, and was shut down by my researching the rules as the jury members were correct in the question of why have a jury if an individual can change that ruling immediately. To my knowledge one is filing for a rule change/clarification on the definition of a Target air rifle, through the required process, in writing to the NRA protest committee. . Justin is now following the process as well, for his thoughts on rule changes, several of which I agree with, I think our message here is good luck.
In the meantime I say we all start working on improving the awards for this years nationals!

Mary

[Dee]

Our club could host a National Air Rifle Championship easily. Getting the official title of National Championship from the NRA might be hard considering how much effort they put into the Air Rifle Nationals they currently hold each year. But really the BAC has hosted National and World Championships in Field Target before so a National Air Rifle Silhouette Match would fit right in.

I am not familiar with the pistol side of things I am sure others could speak more towards it but didn't they form IHSMA because the pistol shooters got fed up dealing with the NRA bullscat?



Dee

[duckgumbo]

The main reason that Bill Motl, Mary Watkins and Pat Steiger run the air rifle match at Winnsboro each year is that we have the largest number of competitors coming to smallbore each year in the country, neigh the world! That is why they chose our range to hold a Regional at. It is my understanding that they will again hold a NRA Regional Air Rifle match in conjunction with our Party.

Dee and Justin I know that you want to run a NRA Nationals or even a Regional, but please coordinate with Bill, Mary and Pat regarding a conflict with the match that they are planning on running at our range. I feel that our Party, the Air Rifle Regional and the Smallbore Regional that could be held at the same time in Winnsboro will be just as successful as the Southern Nationals. Heck, you can even call it that as far as Jerry and I are concerned!

Just do not let the desire for holding a National championship in BR effect how you are going to approach the match in Winnsboro. With all the prizes being given away by Jerry and me for the Party, why would you not have just as many shooters here for air rifle and smallbore? Jerry and I are just planning on basking in the tent shade and drinking beer. We will probably enter the cooking contest!

I just hope that we could outdraw the NRA Nationals with a NON-shooting event! We may call it the Southern Nationals NRA Non-shooting Reunion Party!

[dustinflint]

An air rifle silhouette nationals match would be completely different from the regional at Winnsboro and would be at a different time of the year. The priority for this comes behind the Winnsboro smallbore match and my high power/Cowboy silhouette range that is coming along excruciatingly slow.

Louisiana's plan to take over the silhouette world revolves around 5 matches:

(1) Our state smallbore championship in April.

(2) The Winnsboro regional in June

(3) Our state high power championship in Zwolle in October

(4) A soon-to-be-announced cowboy silhouette regional or state championship

(5) A bid for the annual Air Rifle silhouette national championship.

The matches will be spread out and we will try not to conflict with other big matches.

Dustin (with a "D")

[metalhead]

Louisiana's plan to take over the silhouette world revolves around 5 matches:

(1) Our state smallbore championship in April.

(2) The Winnsboro regional in June

(3) Our state high power championship in Zwolle in October

(4) A soon-to-be-announced cowboy silhouette regional or state championship

(5) A bid for the annual Air Rifle silhouette national championship.


You're kidding..Right? Louisiana is going to take over the Silhouette World ? I can't wait to see that happen.

[CWS]

Marvin... I mean WHY NOT? What are they missing? Some cranky ol' bastards that just wanna sit and drink? Nope, got that one covered... Jees... Budweiser for a sponsor... Crowds of True Believers? Nope, got more than Greggy can muster no matter where he holds his match. Ever been to Zwolle? Winnsboro? This sport/game is supposed to be fun. Connors shoots are NOT fun. He insists on frumpy attitudes and conveys that spirit wherever he goes. The Great State of Lousiana may be all that's keeping this sport from going the IHMSA route. I quit going to Connors matches in '97 because I wasn't having fun but I won't miss a Winnsboro match/party until my hand shakes so bad I spill my drink. Join us.... we need some more crotchety ol' geezers to hold down the tent.

[Innocent]

CWS...especially in the wind and rain we had late Thursday afternoon during the target match....took at least 5 to hold down one tent on the air rifle line.

Innocent

[rogersptl]

I would not be in favor of adding another class. I think just changing the classification numbers would do the same and keep the number of awards needed at an event the same as at present. Yes, it would be harder to be a 'Master' but isnt that what is to be accomplished only calling it 'High Master'? Also the NRA at Nationals, could lessen the awards in daily matches to the suggested certificate and save the 'rocks' for the aggregates which determine the Champions in classes and overall. For me cash is preferrred; the rocks just catch dust & cant be recycled. My 2 cents!