Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing t

22 Long Rifle ammo is finicky. Tell us all about it here.
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Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing t

Post by TOP PREDATOR »

before i get banned on RFC for getting in a pissing match with one of the rimfire snobs, i thought i'd better post / ask this on a real shooters' website for real information. i know we are looking for minute of chicken, pig, turkey or ram when it comes to rifle / ammo accuraccy, i've been thinking about investing in one or two of these tools and perhaps someone here has experience with any of them.

if i have my info straight so far, and the most current prices / contact information i can find:

PACO KELLY'S ACU'RZR

the paco accurizer tool requires you to "whack it " on a hard surface with a mallet.
Paco Kelly
PO Box 1170
Cortaro, AZ 85652
http://www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm
http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-rev ... llet-tool/
http://www.leverguns.com/store/acurizer.htm
paco@gunblast.com
phase 4 seems to be an apples to apples comparison, 1 round at a time
THE PHASE 4 IS FOR THOSE FOLKS LIKE ME THAT HAVE A NUMBER OF 22 RIMFIRE FIREARMS... FOUR FORMING CHAMBERS .222 THRU .225 ALL RODS.$75
appears there are 3 types of bullet reforming rods - the accurizer, scorpion, and nastinose. just by looking at how each is operated, the paco seems odd that you'ld have to whack the tool / rod. seems there can be some variation depending on how differently you strike it.


NEAL WALTZ DIE

Neal Waltz
Email - waltz@sssnet.com
4105 HYATT N.W. MASSILLON, OH 44646
Phone - 1 330 837 4818
from what i found with searches, The cost of the dies is 125 plus fifteen dollars shipping. pictures here:http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... +waltz+die
it appears there are only 2 bullet shaping options. the "Eley head" and the hollowpoint. looks like a reloading die and uses a reloading press. the waltz die seems to have the most uniform pressure results, but you'ld need a reloading press.


D Rock bullet modification system

(contact information in links below)
$55.00 w/ 1 forming rod addtional rods are an extra $10.00, the tool and all 8 rods are $160.00 - (so to completely try all rods to see which works best, you can be in it for $160.00, but at least you do have 8 optional types of heads). instructions to use the D Rock http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=311814
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/vb ... &id=32854#
although not neccessary, D Rock suggests using an arbor press
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PART ... XNO=948887 $25.95
arbor press adapter plate $30.00
$55.00 tool and 1 rod + $25.95 press, + $30.00 adapter plate = $110.95 plus S&H for 1 style rod ($160.00 + $25.95 press + $30.00 adapter plate = $215.95 plus S&H for the "complete" setup)
the D Rock tool seems to equal the waltz die if you get the arbor press and adapter plate, and even then seems complicated / time consuming putting in spacers, collets, moving the tool to the next station, etc. is it really as complicated as it looks? it can also be used without a press, but how do you know when equal pressure is applied from round to round?


there's alot posted at RFC on each and how they shrink groups, but rarely any before and after group pictures or measurements posted. anyone have any befores and afters to share?

anyone have 1 of each or 2 of 3 to compare apples to apples?

does the cost of the dies justify buying cheaper ammo and the time spent processing a brick to just buying better ammo?
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by jneihouse »

Just my opinion, but I believe firmly that you can do anything you want to the bullet or case, you can weigh and sort till your eyes cross, but you will never be able to change what is inside the case...that is the primer and powder, and most importantly, the quality control a premium manufacturer puts into their ammo.

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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by calixt0 »

I am a rimfire central member as well. I can't speak to any but the drock dies. I found no appreciable advantage in accuracy after using it trying multiple positions. what I did find is that if you have an ammo that groups well in your rifle that you can make that ammo into a hollow point or other shape with not decernable loss in accuracy. so now the accurate ammo can be nice and efficient game killers as well. Drock claims (at least now anyways) that this is the purpose. if your hoping to buy cheep ammo and make it shoot like expensive ammo I don't believe this is going to do what you want. I had every intention of posting before and after pics... but they looked the same so there was no point.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by Bob259 »

Walt, Tried the Paco tool for use on small game, for that it was OK. As far as making cheap ammo into Eley it doesn't work. I read all the posts and articles on magic tools and I've tried sorting by weight and rim thinckness and everything else. Bottom line.... save your money and all the time wasted and buy better ammo and be a lot farther ahead.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by BCloninger »

I inherited a Paco tool from a friend that tried it and came away unimpressed. After trying it out I concluded it's a lot of work for no real gain unless you really need a serious hollow point. Besides, there's something about whacking live ammunition on the nose that makes me squeamish, so if you'd like to have it shoot me a message and I'll send it on.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by TOP PREDATOR »

BCloninger wrote:if you'd like to have it shoot me a message and I'll send it on.

PM sent
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by Jerry G »

"there's something about whacking live ammunition on the nose that makes me squeamish"

I'm with you on that one. I have come to the conclusion that the way to get accurate ammo is to buy the good stuff. :-bd
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by TOP PREDATOR »

well, a fine gentleman by the name of Bcloninger had sent me his paco tool, he didn't even want shipping although i offered several times! obviously a great guy, thanks. i just got the tool today, and also today spent 7 hours "disposing" of most of my cheap ammo stragglers.

all i have left in "cheap bulk type" ammo is CCI blazers, which actually shoot quite well anyhow.

so anyway, the blazers are weight sorted, so i'll take 1 round from each weight lot and mix them in the magazine to give and objective and true mix. i'll do a 50 and 100 yard control group.

the paco tool came with three different rods for three different point types, i'll run the three different styles at both 50 and 100 yards.

the tool also forms bullets to .223 and .224 diameters, will also do groups for the different diameters.

i like the idea of using the die / press combo the Waltz provides as i believe it will give better consistant formings, but who knows, the paco method may also do the trick.

stand by for a range report soon...
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by BCloninger »

Hitting bullets with a hammer still seems like a bad idea. %-( I hope this isn't a Darwin moment.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by .22-5-40 »

Hello, everyone. I too have my doubts about these "hammer dies" Aside from my hesitation of pounding on a rather sensitive rimfire ctg., My other concern is..just what is backing up the bullet when it is being re-formed? All there is really, is a very shallow crimping groove at case mouth..I don't think this small area on a nearly pure lead bullet can take much pressure without deforming.
Years ago, when I was into squirrel hunting, I would take CCI Green-Tag..which shot very accurately in my Browning T-Bolt, Set them up in a bench-lathe, with collet stop, & drill out nose for a #4 lead shot. Cavity was filled with stiff grease. Later, I learned how to fill cavity with grease, & using a short piece of hard .050 feeler stock, I would "roll" or "smear" lead of nose over hole, closing it up to small pin-hole size. These little pills would open up just like a big-game bullet..perfect mushroom..when fired into wet rags. If hole was drilled too deep..or when I tried it with solid high-speed ammo..all you would find was the small cupped base..everything else shattered. The trick was the thick grease..hydralic force..a hollow point alone is a sometime thing.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by Hammer47 »

Have used the Waltz die for several years now and can attest to the fact that it DOES make cheap ammo more reliable and accurate. There will be isolated cases with different ammo when the die will NOT improve accuracy but those times are rare. I have never used the die on ammo more expensive that Wolf or SK but when you get into the big buck ammo, you shouldn't have to. The Waltz die is not cheap but the quality is great, would not be without it. If I can make a dime shoot like a dollar you think maybe I'm not gonna do it????? ;)
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by ShooterP14 »

BCloninger wrote:Hitting bullets with a hammer still seems like a bad idea. %-( I hope this isn't a Darwin moment.

The old Lee hand loader used this method the seat the bullets. Or as a friend of mine calls it "The 'Whack-A-Mole' method" after the arcade game. I was never brave enough to try one of those, but he loaded 100's of rounds before he bought a regular press with no ill effects. The additional fact that you are doing this to a rimfire round... I just shudder to think about it. Now, if you could somehow put this rig into a press where you could gently apply pressure to form the bullet, maybe. I go along with the others, just buy the best ammo you can afford and work more on your fundamentals.
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by patience0830 »

I'm one of those horrible snobs from RFC. :roll:
New here and trying to win friends and influence people like T/P. :wink:
Not sure if we've had the pleasure of crossing swords b4 but your attitude sounds familiar T/P. :P

My experience is with Drock's tool and I use it to turn already accurate ammo into better results hunting. Mostly the results for accuracy have been consistent. B4 whacking with a hammer is about the same as after. Exception has been CCI tgt shorts in my Browning ATD, they improved with whacking. I've done thousands of rounds, ( about 6 bricks now) with a mallet and no Darwin moments yet. YMMV :shock:
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Re: Neal Waltz die, paco kelly ACU'RZR, or the D rock sizing

Post by BCloninger »

patience0830 wrote:I've done thousands of rounds, ( about 6 bricks now) with a mallet and no Darwin moments yet. YMMV :shock:
Yup, and the holder looks plenty stout enough to contain and direct force. Still, it only takes one to create a lasting memory...

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