218 Bee for Pistol Cartridge

[Varn]

Is there any reason a 218 bee would not be a legal chambering in pistol cartridge? The following definition was taken directly from the NRA Rifle Silhouette rule book Revision Jan,2011.

b) Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette -
A. Any lever action rifle with a tubular magazine. A rimmed pistol cartridge loaded with a round or flat
nosed bullet must be used, i.e. 25-20, 32-20, 38's, 357 Magnum, 38-40, 44's, 44-40, 45 Colt, 45 Long
Colt, .22 Magnum, .22 long rifle



The 218 is available in a pistol. A Taurus revolver to be exact. It is rimmed. It is available in a lever gun with a tubular magazine. I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be legal as long as it was loaded to ensure no target damage occurs which is unlikely since a 22 Hornet is very similar in velocity and it is used on the same targets in the Pistol Silhouette game. I also called Greg Conner and expressed my concern to him and he stated that he could see no reason why it wouldn't be legal as it is in compliance with all of the criteria listed above. One of my friends had mentioned to that he was told that that the pistol had to be produced in the same era as the rifle. I also asked Greg about this and Greg Conner stated that produced within the era is not written anywhere in the rules and has no bearing on the rule. Before I spend the money for one of these for Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action can anyone see any reason why it would not be legal. Thank you for your time. Mark

[lone ringer]

Varn, the 218 Bee was legal for PC the first year the NRA started sanctioning the Cowboy matches and shortly thereafter outlawed because some people loaded it too hot and it damaged targets. The response from the shooters was tremendous and you would have thought that every other shooter had one 218 Bee from all the letters the silhouette committee got that year in regards to the outlawing of it.
Greg Connor should have remembered that fact but maybe old age is catching up with him. Good luck in getting it reinstated.

[cslcAl]

Mark, Greg must slipping even more. I have a 218 Bee, and I asked him three years ago if they were legal for PC and he told me no. They reason was excessive target damage. I would tend to aggree with him. Al

[krgriggs]

I have an 218 bee marlin and I asked Greg if I could use it and he said he would not allow it because of target damage. I ask him if I loaded them down if I could use it and it was also a no! Darn, so it is one of my unused rifles. I think it would be a great cartridge for the sport. I tried lead and got very limited success with it, but it shot jacketed very well.

[boats]

Target damage is a match directors call. You may find some that let you shoot a Bee others may not. Suspect Greg was taking about his match were he has a lot of shooters and no time to look over everybodys loads. Our club checks new outfits. Even my Lead bullet 32/20 was checked before allowed. It's a reasonable precaution, you never know what somebody is going to show up with. Unless there is some advantage to a Bee better to invest in a rifle that will shoot any match with no worries.

Boats

[Varn]

Thank you to Tony, Al, Benny and Boats. I appreciate your input. I've decided not to go the pistol cartidge route at this time. My interest in it was to shoot a Browning 65 lever gun in 218 BEE. From what I'm understanding now the NRA doesn't have an iron clad position on it and it is up to the match director to either allow or ban it due to target damage. Greg told me it was ok and has told others it isn't. I'm not understanding it. Either it is legal or it is not legal. The game is played with the same targets at the same distance as Hunter's pistol. The 218 Bee can easily be loaded to 22 Hornet velocity. The 22 Hornet is one of the most popular hunter pistol cartridges in use today. No problems with target damage there. And they're loading it with Matchkings, not Flat points as in lever guns. As Benny Griggs so insightfully pointed out its all in the loading. This doesn't just apply to Pistol cartridge silhouette. I'm sure someone could load a .243 Winchester with a hot load using 6mm 90 grain FMJ bullets and cause damage to the chickens in HP. That would be the fault of the loading not the cartridge. Yet nobody would ban the .243 just because of the cartridge designation. The load would be banned after target damage became apparent. Which is as it should be. Silhouette targets are very expensive and we should all be careful to avoid target damage. Again thank you to all who responded. Mark

[boats]

Varn

Understand your positon, It's possable to load a Bee pretty hot, up to the guy doing the loading out of the MD's control. From a match directors point of view lot of things going on match day. Checking in a couple of dozen guys setting targets money books new shooters etc. Somebody shows up with a cartridge out of the ordanary. Do you stop to check it out or just say no. Depends on if they are comfortable with you what you shoot. I had somebody sign up for Smallbore with a .17 rimfire. I don't read the popular gun press see no reason for a 17 caliber anything and knew nothing about the cartridge, let him shoot and he broke some chickens. Good thing was he hit very few or it would have been worse. Now it's no 17's allowed our club.

Our pistol cartridge match I used a 35 Remington Stevens 425 Lever action for a while downloaded with 38 special bullets. It worked good too but gave it up for a regular pistol cartridge since it was not likely I could shoot it at matches away from our club. MD for pistol cartidge knows me and the rifle but it still put him in some worry. In the end it's not the NRA's final say it's the clubs match director. There is a specific rule on target damage giving authority to the club and director 3.17

Boats

[Varn]

Boats,
Having read that rule prior was the reason for my confusion. The rule states that loads that damage targets may be banned, not cartridges per say. A 218BEE can be loaded to cause damage to or not cause damage to a target. Your 35 Remington downloaded was exactly the point I was attempting to make. The cartridge most certainly had the potential to damage targets. Your proper loading was the factor that made it not damage the targets. I most certainly agree with the rule giving the match director final say. They are the ones who so unselfishly give their time to running the match. They are tasked with running the match, protecting the clubs equipment, and having to answer the shooters' questions. It would seem prudent to choose a different cartridge than have to subject the match director to checking for target damage when they have all the other duties to attend to. Thank you again to all who replied.

[Tlee]

I've yet to see a factory load for 22 hornet NOT damage a PC target, so the notion that a 218 could be used at 22 hornet velocities doesn't apply unless they've been downloaded. 22 hornet has to be downloaded to 1700 fps or so (definitely under 2000fps) to ensure little or no target damage. We see these physics frequently at Hunter Pistol matches if a new shooter shows up with factory loads, even with a 10" Contender. I can only imagine what they'd do out of a 20-24" barrel.

Actually, even an American Eagle!? (Federal's red box) 357 factory 158gr JSP ammo has caused some of the most "crater damage" I've seen on a PC target. So pretty much every caliber has the potential for damages. Just gotta use good sense!

-Tim

[boats]

Our club all the Hornets in Hunters Pistol have been inspected and checked by the match director before he will let them shoot. Tells me out of the factory box they will crack the chickens everytime

Boats

[Tlee]

Our club all the Hornets in Hunters Pistol have been inspected and checked by the match director before he will let them shoot. Tells me out of the factory box they will crack the chickens everytime

Boats

Yep... And they'll put a pretty deep crater in the pigs, especially if they're mild steel.

- Tim

[Jason]

Yep.. When I first started shooting a 22 Hornet in a Contender barrel, I was told that factory velocities would damage the targets. I'm currently using a 55gr bullet at 1750fps and there's no target damage.