Finding new, younger shooters

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Hotrodrockets
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Hotrodrockets »

Pistol games sell out
Because action pistol is easy.

In Tennessee Im working on bringing in families that can shoot together.
Parents bring the kids. Natural progression.

The only big problem I have down here is no one knows what Silhouette is.
I have to convince people from other shooting sports to give it a try.

Thousands of high school shotgun shooters.
A hand full of Silhouette shooters.

But at least I have got a few to turn to the Darkside.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Merlin »

Action pistol is easy? Unbelievable. 8-|
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durant7
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by durant7 »

Atomic,

Enjoy reading your posts. But I wish to explore (not disagree) the statement that families/shooters no longer participate or try for the first time the Silhouette game due to cost. Inflation, fuel, travel, components, base equipment. Agree. If things were as expensive back then as they are now, not sure I would be into the sport. But the "pistol" gang has also experienced the same inflation and availability challenges. Have they not? The "timed" aka speed shooting games are not being slowed by the cost of the hobby. So what is different?

I think your response would be "sanctioning body" and the clear focus of the sport, rules, standardization and pulling in sponsors. I look at what Metal Madness has done. Created an ingenious course of fire which can be replicated around the country. Developed a course of fire with speed element and has a sponsor, Ruger, putting dollars and or prizes in as a 10/22 seems to be the platform of choice. The aftermarket guys, optics guys, magazine guys all get in and promote the sport to generate more sales. To your point, one organizer.

Perhaps we should steal a page from Sports Car Club of Ameria (SCCA). Participation was declining so they started Spec Classes. Spec RX7 and now Spec Miata. Bone stock, no money pit. Just driving talent. Iron sight (post & tang) Ruger 10/22 with Federal Bulk ammo on 1/2 scale animals. First bank of 5 in 1 minute. Second bank 30 seconds. Even then, those tools of the trade are not easy to find. And old eyes would likely object. And the role of the spotter, an important part of the social aspect of Silhouette, would diminish.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by jbmarshtx »

I think there are a lot of reasons, but I don't know that there are many easy solutions, certainly no quick ones. NRL, NRL22, PRS, PRS22, action pistol, etc. show that there are shooters out there. There's like 7 pages of 'what is stopping you from entering a shooting competition' on a hunting forum I frequent. Some of the same responses are there that they take too long, they are expensive, no range nearby, etc. Honestly silhouette seems like a better fit for hunters or most shooters than PRS or NRL. There's always a post on accurate shooter about increasing participation or making the classifications more inclusive, etc.

I don't think that sanctioning bodies really have much to do with it to be honest. NRA and state orgs have shifted focus from shooting/hunting to basically only political/2A issues. I don't think that PRS, NRL, etc. they are associated with NRA at all, but having never competed in any discipline other than silhouette, I don't know about that for sure.

I don't see the 'equipment race' comments as really being a hindrance to participation. They may have made some competitors shift from one silhouette discipline to another, but I don't know that they are a real hindrance. For most shooters, the equipment is not the limitation. A CZ, Tikka T1, Ruger, etc. are probably sufficient for 1/5 scale. There are also several reasonably priced 16-20x scopes that might work. Same with some of the highpower rifles out there. I agree that it can be difficult to make weight for hunter, but again, I don't think that match directors are going to turn anyone away.

Promotion will help. While I don't think that any match director is going to turn anyone away, acceptance of a wider variety of equipment and styles of shooting will help. Call it 4-P silhouette where you have to shoot standing, kneeling, sitting, and prone. That might encourage more shooters to try it. To be able to use the same range and animals and keep it sort of challenging, consider reversing the animals and shoot rams standing at chicken distance, turkeys kneeling at pigs, pigs sitting at turkey distance, and then chickens prone at ram distance. An AR/Black Rifles class is another way that might help if caliber choice/targets can be sorted out. Bigger targets for the scoped classes might help if it is all standing.

Grouping various matches together as more of a silhouette range day might also work if an agreed upon ready and fire time sequence would work. It's much more enjoyable to shoot with 20 people than 5 or 6. This also at least give the appearance of more interest to the ranges so that they tie up fewer days of range time for 6-12 shooters. Obviously, some of these ideas might not work for regional or state matches where NRA scores might be submitted or records kept, but they are possible ideas.

Lack of ranges is one issue and appropriate targets at the existing ranges is another issue. We could have 2 other possible high power match locations in Texas, but one doesn't have suitable targets and the other apparently got burned by a high power match director previously so they aren't interested in holding a match. So, Texas has 1 option for a high power state match. We do have quite a few more for smallbore. It's tough to make a case to buy new banks of AR500 targets to be used for a reduced or other type of match if you aren't going to have more than 6-10 regular shooters. Unless shooters are willing to pay a decent amount for a club match, clubs are simply going to have a tough time buying/replacing targets without the demand.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by lone ringer »

cedestech wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:51 am
lone ringer wrote: Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:57 pm
About time we resurrect the original USSA (UNITED STATES SILUETA/SILHOUETTE ASSOCIATION) that ran the silhouette matches in Arizona and other states in the late 1960's and early 1970's. They let the NRA take over the game and the rest is history.

https://nassasilhouette.org/about-us/
Have heard about NASSA for awhile and my opinion is that trying to form an organization that includes the US, Canada and Mexico is just too ambitious and unrealistic idea. Very few shooters in each of the three countries are willing or able to travel to the locations where those large matches are held.
In order for the sport to grow it's necessary to start at the local shooting clubs, 4H, Boy's Scouts, etc. with inexpensive equipment. As one that grew up with the sport (started shooting in 1978) I began shooting SB with a Rem 581 that I had bought for $50, other people were converting their Anschutz 64/54, Rem 40X and Win 52 target rifles into silhouette rifles to make them fit the jig at the nationals, after a few years Anschutz offered 54MS for $500 and 64MS for $350. Now people are paying thousands of dollars for a custom silhouette rifle. I know it is not necessary to spend that much on a good rifle, but new shooters pay attention to what rifles elite shooters are using/winning with and when they figure out how much they cost, most of them shy away to other shooting sports.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Sporty »

lone ringer wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 4:34 pm I know it is not necessary to spend that much on a good rifle, but new shooters pay attention to what rifles elite shooters are using/winning with and when they figure out how much they cost, most of them shy away to other shooting sports.
Agreed. Unless a prospective new shooter visits a club match they may only have seen the champion's customized equipment shown in the media.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by cedestech »

jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:20 pm I think there are a lot of reasons, but I don't know that there are many easy solutions, Yup.

I don't think that sanctioning bodies really have much to do with it to be honest. NRA and state orgs have shifted focus from shooting/hunting to basically only political/2A issues. I don't think that PRS, NRL, etc. they are associated with NRA at all, but having never competed in any discipline other than silhouette, I don't know about that for sure. Yup again.

I don't see the 'equipment race' comments as really being a hindrance to participation. Nope



Lack of ranges is one issue and appropriate targets at the existing ranges is another issue. --- Unless shooters are willing to pay a decent amount for a club match, clubs are simply going to have a tough time buying/replacing targets without the demand. Yup
I shoot at 5 ranges very regularly every month-ish all year long.... (Texas weather is a blessing)

All but one have a SEVERE decrease in range utilization over the last few years. It's not just shooting sports but shooting in general. Silhouette has been on a downward curve over the last 20 years... just like candle stick bowling and croquet.

Should you completely remake the game? Jesus no. There are plenty of people who shoot/used to shoot the game. You should look to find out why they quit and try to bring them back into the fold.

I'm a firm believer that while the "rules" need to remain static for the most part, more emphasis should be placed on individual matches and not on the sanctioning body. The game seems to be a in abusive relationship with some sanctioning bodies and would probably do well with a trial separation.

This is just my opinion. You can take it for what it's worth.

;)
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by H.Plummer »

Just an idea...
Put an emphasis on PARTICIPATION over COMPETITION. You can participate in this sport with a $450 Henry rifle and still have fun. Some, like me, will forever be content with that as my goal is only to become more proficient with the rifles I already own. Others may start there but eventually choose to make a large investment to become more competitive in the sport. Either way, you're getting participants that may keep the sport alive. You gotta get em to the range to get em hooked!
Side note...
As I was walking around our rural county fair this fall it occurred to me that our local silhouette club should have a tent set up to promote the sport and, perhaps, introduce folks to it that may not know it even exists. Get the dads interested and maybe they will eventually start involving their young kids.
Just a couple of my random thoughts. Take it or leave it.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by 375Short »

https://nassasilhouette.org/sporting-ri ... o-the-usa/

“Sporting Rifle” is set to make a debut just before the 2023 Wester National’s in Raton. It is simple, doesn’t require an expensive rifle and could be an avenue for a club match to have a more official gateway to other forms of Silhouette. At any rate it has proven popular to the south and hopefully will catch on here and Canada.

I’m not involved in NASSA other than watching the WEB page grow. It is something we should all be paying attention to. By design or accident it could grow into the Governing body mentioned a number of times in this thread. When there’s a vacuum it will be filled.

Reading this thread and realizing the time a number of people have taken to write and put thought into problems and solutions is positive and is likely what will keep our sport alive if not thriving. When you look at the number of times topics are viewed v. comment there are a great number of people reading ideas. Among those are likely people that silently find a good idea and take action at a local level.

One aspect of retaining new shooters is to be overtly welcoming on day one or day two may not happen. As a whole silhouette shooters are a diverse, friendly and welcoming group but also reserved and not always overtly welcoming. Example-Our club will normally have 20’ish shooter’s (double that pre Covid) , new shooter, often with family arrives. Wide eyed, a little lost and unsure. Out of the group of 20 regulars somewhere between 2 and 6 will make the Overt effort to be welcoming, drop goals for the day and take the new folks under wing. The remainder of the group is a friendly giving bunch as well but don’t put in the needed effort. My guess is this is reflective of most any organization or club. The point is it is one area that we each individually have full control of and need to make sure we put in the overt effort. Take that one step further and play a leadership role by reminding the entire group of regulars to make the welcoming effort, you won’t get them all but you’ll get some.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by cedestech »

375Short wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:26 am https://nassasilhouette.org/sporting-ri ... o-the-usa/

“Sporting Rifle” is set to make a debut just before the 2023 Wester National’s in Raton. It is simple, doesn’t require an expensive rifle and could be an avenue for a club match to have a more official gateway to other forms of Silhouette. At any rate it has proven popular to the south and hopefully will catch on here and Canada.

We've been shooting this for years at BRI. Also known as the Larry Ingle Cheater Rifle Match...

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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by Sporty »

375Short wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:26 am The point is it is one area that we each individually have full control of and need to make sure we put in the overt effort. Take that one step further and play a leadership role by reminding the entire group of regulars to make the welcoming effort, you won’t get them all but you’ll get some.
That was what I have tried to do when I was a match director. For example, a new 4-H junior to my NRA approved silhouette match was accompanied by her mother. I approached the mother, introduced myself and asked if she shoots. She replied in the affirmative. So, I lent her one of my rifles to shoot along side her daughter. Her daughter was thrilled. A 4-H coach noticed and found a better fitting rifle for the second match. Memories were made.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by pmpski_1 »

Hello, this is my first post here.

I mostly shoot NRL22, and I used to shoot benchrest matches. Outside of matches, I typically shoot 1/5 silhouette paper targets, scaled for 50 yards because my local range only allows paper targets. I ran an informal 3P match for a while, but no longer do so. I shoot every weekend, whether it's a match or just fun. I love smallbore silhouette. Love it. And I love matches/competition. But I have some thoughts on why the sport is less popular than other smallbore disciplines.

The first one is pretty obvious for most of you, silhouette is hard. It takes a lot of practice and focus to get to a point where you can hit even half the targets. I don't know if this is a bug or a feature. Yes, it's hard, but that's why I'm happy if I get more than 12 hits. It's not much fun if it's too easy. But this is a huge barrier for a lot of people. For new shooters, or even someone trying a new discipline, it's pretty easy to shoot a few other types of matches and make enough improvement to where you're halfway decent. You have to be dedicated and maybe a little crazy to keep doing something this hard.

A thing that has turned me off from "official" silhouette is the strict rules on equipment. I probably won't ever shoot an official match because of the equipment rules. I have a stock CZ 455 that wouldn't be legal because I replaced the horrible factory trigger with a delightful aftermarket trigger that is less than 2 lb. Seems like a nitpick, but it's a big deal to me and isn't an issue with any other disciplines that I shoot. ARA and NRL22 have base or factory classes where you have a price limit based on MSRP or an approved list of medium range rifles like CZs and Tikkas. These are great for people who are just getting into the sport or are on a budget. They allow some modifications, notably the trigger, but if you replace the barrel or stock you get kicked up to the open classes. I understand the rules exist to level the playing field and put the focus on skills instead of equipment, but I think there needs to be some thought on how to make it easier for people to participate without having to worry about making weight or whether their trigger is too light. Make it easy for people who are already participating in ARA Factory Class or NRL22 Base Class to shoot a silhouette match with equipment they already have.

People at the NRL22 matches I shoot hate shooting off hand, because it's hard or "their rifles are too heavy". But I bought a set of 1/5 swingers and I'm working with the MDs to set them up for bonus stages. Maybe I can trick a few of them into having fun with it, then convince them to shoot a silhouette match.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by hermit5 »

Pimski,thank you for joining,commenting,participating in Silhouette.
We all understand the equipment rules that are somewhat restrictive.On the local level a first timer wanting to shoot what they have
is understandable.Everyone has been there.
As long as this person obeys the unchanging certain rules regarding rifle handling safety,ammo ,time limits and most of all Offhand.
No one will care what you shoot as far as using a different trigger or a benchrest gun.There maybe curious eyes watching to see how you can do.Anyone who would bug a new guy about his equipment not being legal is a jerk,yes we have those.As I’ve previously stated.
Take this new guy to the range other than a match and let them proceed slowly and without embarrassment.
First off,the new guy should be set up with an experienced shooter to help with procedures and offhand techniques.Not in a critical manor just helpful.It will soon be apparent that the rifle setup wanting to be used isn’t the right tool for the job.Not so much that the rifle doesn’t conform to the rules.Which leads to the next step.Official match competitions.
At this stage,the competitor has understood the challenges,rules and commitment to improving.
Off topic a little is,this new Open Sight Sporter Rifle on half size animals.I think this is a big door to opening newbie’s to silhouette.
Keep the rules and equipment simple till it gets off the ground.
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by cedestech »

pmpski_1 wrote: Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:06 pm But I have some thoughts on why the sport is less popular than other smallbore disciplines.
Thank you for participating and participating in the conversation.

Not to beat a dead horse (though that seems to be a favorite pastime for many, including me at times…)

Outside of a State, Regional or National match, you WILL NOT find a match director who will turn anyone away because of equipment. If you ever do post their name and I assure you they will be publicly pilloried. (Depending on the size of the state or regional they may even let you shoot with the understanding your scores won’t count for the record but you can participate)

One of the things we do at the 3 ranges I shoot at regularly is put out 1/2 scale animals for new shooters. I COMPLETELY agree, first time you try it, it is VERY discouraging to only hit a couple animals. I know there are A LOT of shooters/MD who have rifles they are more than happy to loan for people to try the sport.

You are correct that most shooters I know have that thing in them… it’s the same with golfers. It’s a sublimely simple game that is actually VERY hard to master, if you ever do, depending on the definition and bar you set for yourself.

The rules is the rules. They have been stagnant for a long time for good reason. At this point there are a ton of old silhouette guns that are perfectly usable and modifiable to fit new owners out there. I honestly think that is one of the perceived barriers to entry that could be massaged with some peer pressure. The rifles and scopes are sitting in safes/shelf gathering dust because they’re going to get back to it one day or they can’t get what they have into it back out of them.

I know a lot of people thank you for encouraging cross pollination. It is one of the few ways we get new suckers… I mean competitors.

:ymhug:
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Re: Finding new, younger shooters

Post by pmpski_1 »

Appreciate the replies and thanks for lending me an ear!

I haven't run into anyone turning people away in my limited experience, and I wouldn't expect that at all. The only local match that I know of is a "Cowboy Action" match and they welcome any and all no matter what you shoot. (Local is relative, Pe'Ell is a 3 hour drive for me...and between work, family, and other stuff that is pretty far when most of the matches I shoot are a 30 minute drive at the most. I'm spoiled.)

The first match I shot was an official NRA smallbore match, and they paired me up with an experienced shooter. People were very welcoming, I had a blast, and was hooked from that day on. Unfortunately there weren't enough participants over the years and I don't believe they have those matches any longer, only the Cowboy Action matches.

I do feel like the equipment regulations for smallbore silhouette are advantageous in some respects - no jackets and no slings makes it very bare bones, whereas other disciplines you have some other equipment that you'll need to purchase to get in the door. A bipod at the minimum.

The more I think about it, the more I believe cross-pollination is the key. When I see people shooting Vudoos or similar rifles at a benchrest match, I invite them to come out to an NRL22 match. When I see people having fun with the off hand stages at NRL22, I invited them to try my 3P match, or to check out the Cowboy Silhouette match. When I ran my match, I tried to find people who enjoyed doing an Appleseed clinic, and get them to come out to shoot the match. But most of the time, I find that people get invested in one discipline and stick to it, either because of equipment requirements or time. But I do get a lot of "I don't want to buy another rifle just to shoot a different match".

I just learned of NASSA from this thread, so I'm going to take a look at that and see what's going on.
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