2020 National Championship Dates

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atomicbrh
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by atomicbrh »

Taps, I competed in the 2018 National matches at Raton.
Is it worth finishing at 3 PM when you are abusing the older senior shooters?
Some of them are in poor health and have difficulty walking on the large size gravel.
Is it worth making elderly people run as fast as they can to go from Ram Firing Point 1 to Chicken Firing Point 1 with their equipment just to get done by 3 PM?
Was it worth belittling them and screaming at them especially on the last afternoon of 2018 Smallbore to hurry them up? Do you want them to have a heart attack? Your lack of respect for our senior shooters who have supported silhouette most of their lives is disgusting.
Last edited by atomicbrh on Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

lijeboy
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by lijeboy »

atomicbrh wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:33 pm
Jeanne, please read my post again. Upon considering the math again, practice day is already paid for. It is simple logic that there should be almost no cost to the competitors to run two 40 round approved matches on practice day. The only additional cost should be simple paper scorecards like we all use at monthly matches and maybe a few cans of paint. There is already a match caller for practice day that is calling practice, target setters for practice day and the practice day match scorecards can be put in the system weeks later. There does not even have to be a yellow board. As least input from the competitors is being asked for early enough to sift through it and implement the best suggestions.
No need to reread it, Bobby. I understand your position.
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44 mag
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by 44 mag »

The warm up match at Ridgway is a Registered match that way any National records count. We only charge $25 to shoot both guns and this match is usually full for 4 relays. This match does not take the place of any practice days as we open the range to competitors alot earlier in the week than Raton does. This is just something we have done for a long time and it helps new shooters get aquatinted with the range as well as how a Nationals is run. It also gives shooters who are not classified a chance to get classified before the Nationals. I think this year we had 8 unclassified shooters in the warm up match.

lijeboy
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by lijeboy »

atomicbrh wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:35 pm
Taps, I competed in the 2018 National matches at Raton.
Is it worth finishing at 3 PM when you are abusing the older senior shooters?
Some of them are in poor health and have difficulty walking on the large size gravel.
Is it worth making elderly people run as fast as they can to go from Ram Firing Point 1 to Chicken Firing Point 1 with their equipment just to get done by 3 PM?
Was it worth belittling them and screaming at them especially on the last afternoon of 2018 Smallbore to hurry them up? Do you want them to have a heart attack? Your lack of respect for our senior shooters who have supported silhouette most of their lives is disgusting.
Come on, Bobby. No one screamed at anyone, nor was there any belittling, abuse, or force-marching of the elderly. If there was, I'm sure you would have brought it to my attention. You didn't, and neither did anyone else.
Last edited by lijeboy on Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~Jeanne Ring

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atomicbrh
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by atomicbrh »

Yes there was Jeanne. Julie and I were right there on the last afternoon. We have discussed it periodically since 2018. We discussed it as soon as the truck door shut to leave the range. We discussed it on the 1100 mile drive home. We did not imagine it. As match director you were probably focused intently on another aspect of running the match. We were one of the groups who were making that Baatan death march from far left rams to chickens. The belligerent bordering on profanity from the tower was happening just as we were travelling behind the pig line headed to chickens. I do cardio and I hit a few chickens on the bottom bank. The run from rams caught up with me and I did not hit any chickens on the top bank. The gravel does not cause us any difficulty walking like some people but having to go so fast to go the whole distance of the firing line at altitude to arrive at our firing point in time does cause us shortness of breath. We live at almost sea level so cardio is not the same here as it is at Raton. It does not bother me that I missed some chickens but it does bother me to see older people struggling to keep up when the only reason is to be finished by 3 PM. Our older people who shoot silhouette are never going to say anything about this subject but somebody needed to.

thauglor
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by thauglor »

I agree there should have an extra minute after the last relay to allow for the spotting scope to get to where they need to be if they are being shared, mainly only going from rams to chickens.

But there was no Baatan death march, you are exaggerating there.

So you shot relay 4 on Rams then had to run over to chickens to shoot relay 1 to miss a few chickens? How does that work? You had 3 relays in between shooting.
atomicbrh wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:50 pm
Yes there was Jeanne. Julie and I were right there on the last afternoon. We have discussed it periodically since 2018. We discussed it as soon as the truck door shut to leave the range. We discussed it on the 1100 mile drive home. We did not imagine it. As match director you were probably focused intently on another aspect of running the match. We were one of the groups who were making that Baatan death march from far left rams to chickens. The belligerent bordering on profanity from the tower was happening just as we were travelling behind the pig line headed to chickens. I do cardio and I hit a few chickens on the bottom bank. The run from rams caught up with me and I did not hit any chickens on the top bank. The gravel does not cause us any difficulty walking like some people but having to go so fast to go the whole distance of the firing line at altitude to arrive at our firing point in time does cause us shortness of breath. We live at almost sea level so cardio is not the same here as it is at Raton. It does not bother me that I missed some chickens but it does bother me to see older people struggling to keep up when the only reason is to be finished by 3 PM. Our older people who shoot silhouette are never going to say anything about this subject but somebody needed to.

atomicbrh
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by atomicbrh »

Zoran, I am not complaining about my situation just describing it. I just saw several of our most respected elder statesmen competitors struggling and under great difficulty at that match. It hurt my heart and it hurt Julie's heart. No, I had to spot for Julie on Rams and then immediately run to chickens and shoot. You are young. Wait until you are old. You will see what I am talking about. You may not have been at the same place on the line at the same times as we were to see it.

thauglor
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by thauglor »

I agree with you that it was a bit hurried. Like I said above, after the last relay, giving 2 minutes more (that is 8 minutes per match, 16 minutes in 1 day) would solve the issue.

I don't remember anything belligerent, but I don't listen to the tower too much. I was just saying it wasn't a Baatan death march no matter how much you were hurried.

One thing I do suggest is keeping all the possible national champions on the same relay and same animal as much as possible. If there are 10 banks of animals, we can keep the top 10 people all there shooting at the same time. Not only is it most fair, it is also great to watch so many great shooters on the same animal at the same time.

atomicbrh
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by atomicbrh »

Whoever makes the relay assignments is supposed to know to put the top Masters capable of winning the tournament on the same relay and the same animal at the same time to make the playing field equal.

cedestech
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:09 am
top Masters capable of winning the tournament on the same relay and the same animal at the same time to make the playing field equal.
No entering the fray of of this discussion other then to ask the mechanics of this. It is not the first time I have heard it. I know a few capable shooters and we talk. Every one of them are shooting their own match and are trying to keep other people out of their head. We all count our score in our head but they usually try their damnest to keep it to one perfect shot at a time. How does squadding change this?
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

atomicbrh
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by atomicbrh »

Emmett, the purpose of scheduling the top masters on the same relay, on the same animal at the same time is all about mainly wind and light conditions. None of them have an advantage of a calm condition if they are all on the distance animals at the same time. It ensures that none of them have a condition advantage. If you will notice the top AAA shooters are on the same animal at the same time also and so on down the line with AA, etc. if the people scheduling the relays have enough experience to understand the significance of the conditions.
Last edited by atomicbrh on Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

cedestech
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:50 am
Emmett, the purpose of scheduling the top masters on the same relay, on the same animal at the same time is all about mainly wind and light conditions. None of them have an advantage of a calm condition if they are all on the distance animals at the same time. If you will notice the top AAA shooters are on the same animal at the same time also and so on down the line with AA, etc. if the people scheduling the relays have enough experience to understand the significance of the conditions.
I'll buy that... I'm more of a random let fate have a hand but I do get it.
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

lijeboy
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by lijeboy »

atomicbrh wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:09 am
Whoever makes the relay assignments is supposed to know to put the top Masters capable of winning the tournament on the same relay and the same animal at the same time to make the playing field equal.
I do not subscribe to this theory, and it's not lack of experience or understanding conditions that dictates my thoughts on the subject. Champions will find a way to beat you, no matter the conditions. Thats what makes them champions.

A few years back a AA shooter won the Pistol Cartridge Championship. It happens. Any match director that thinks they can determine who is "capable of winning" is engaging in a form of discrimination in my opinion.

Random, luck of the draw makes it fair for everyone,


That's my last comment on this thread. (I should have gotten out after the Bataan Death March comment. 8-| )
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thauglor
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by thauglor »

lijeboy wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:24 am
Champions will find a way to beat you, no matter the conditions. Thats what makes them champions.

Random, luck of the draw makes it fair for everyone
That is just plain wrong. If you are so into luck, just then choose a name out of a hat and make that the national championship. This was supposed to be a competition.

I want to beat the best at the top of their game, not because luck gave me good conditions compared to them. Doing what you suggest will make the victory feel hollow.

If you have two champions, capable of shooting a 40 in calm conditions, one is ending on turkeys and 1 on chickens, and they are tied. Then it starts getting windy, well guess who has the easier path to win? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the guy on turkeys. And then even different relays can have different wind.

I think it is unfair for people to drive 1000 miles, spend days of their vacation on this sport just to have luck give the win to someone else.
Last edited by thauglor on Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

DJA
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Re: 2020 National Championship Dates

Post by DJA »

One of the beautiful things about the shooting sports is that a complete noob can stand shoulder to shoulder with a national champion and shoot the same targets with the same guns at the same time. Many other sports separate the "elites" from everybody else. Let's not do that. Over the course of a championship, multiple matches are shot, and directors already do scramble up the relays and starting animals for each match. That's the best they can do.

The place where things get screwed up (happened to me one year at Raton) is when a squad is split between the last relay and the first. Shooting or spotting Rams on relay 4 and then having to run to spot or shoot chickens on relay 1 is a big problem. Match directors need to run this check when figuring the squading. Then, we're cool, right?

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