Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

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atomicbrh
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Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by atomicbrh »

In the below e-mail Aaron Farmer interpreted that the monthly Approved matches are the same as Registered matches.
Has this really changed?
State, Regional, and National matches are Registered matches as stated in Rule 17.1, 17.2 and 17.5. Also see Rule 1.6(c)(d)(e)(f).
This means that National Records can be established in local monthly APPROVED tournaments. If this is the case:
I WANT BRUCE FINLEY'S PERFECT 40/40 IN OUTDOOR AIR RIFLE FIRED ON OCTOBER 11,2014 IN OUR APPROVED MATCH TO BE RETROACTIVLEY RECOGNIZED AS A NATIONAL RECORD!
I am sure others that have fired National Records in approved matches want the same.
Here are the two e-mails that resulted from Joel trying to get his Outdoor Sporter classification correct:

To: "Farmer, Aaron" <AFarmer@nrahq.org>
Subject: Re: NRA score book
Aaron
I will try to find and scan the books that prove I am still A in outdoor sporter. Those AAA scores were all shot in approved matches. Per rule 19.17.1 it has to be a registered match to be moved to AA.
Thanks,
Joel

His Reply:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019, 1:00 PM, Farmer, Aaron <AFarmer@nrahq.org> wrote:
Approved matches are registered.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

If an Approved match is the same as a Registered match, why do we even have the term "Approved" in the rulebook?
Can somebody like Jeanne who communicates with Aaron routinely make sure that this is what he really meant?

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by cedestech »

He's confused on the language. The rule book is the rule book as far as approved and registered.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by lijeboy »

Bobby, I think your subject line is a little misleading. I didn't read the email chain you sent me as a "ruling." Seems to me he was telling your son his AAA scores counted towards his upward classification, even though they were shot in "approved" rather than "registered" matches. Maybe it was a poor choice of words on Aaron's part.

See the below 19.17 from the 2019 Silhouette Rulebook. It should lend some clarity to your issue. It doesn't specify "approved" or "registered" to reclassify.

19.17 Reclassification - Competitors will be reclassified to a higher classification when they fire two scores in any higher classification to go from B class upward or three scores in any higher classification to go from A, AA, or AAA upward. Scores fired in the previous 24 months will be used to reclassify upward. Classifications will not expire. Reclassification to a lower classification will occur only by petition to the NRA Silhouette Department, and only if a competitor has fired 12 consecutive scores in a lower classification. Such downward reclassification may take place only once every two years. No competitor may be reclassified downward more than one class at a time. Also, if a shooter, once reclassified downward (example: AAA to AA), fires a score which falls into the previous higher class (AAA), that shooter will return to the previous higher class (AAA) at the conclusion of that tournament. No competitor will be changed in classification during the course of a tournament, except under the conditions listed in Rule 19.17.1.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by atomicbrh »

All of us, Joel, Julie and I thought the e-mail chain meant exactly what Aaron replied.
Since the 24 month rule has replaced the "last year of competition" rule for moving up a classification, Joel's AAA scores have rolled off because he has not shot that rifle division since 2015. Joel's desire to get his classifications correct became secondary in this correspondence with Aaron.
Aaron was replying that there is no difference in Approved and Registered matches as evidenced by his application in this situation of what some competitors call the "Sandbagger" rule which is Rule 19.17.1. The Rule 19.17.1 would only apply if Joel's AAA scores had been shot in a state, regional or national match. They were all shot in approved local matches.
The term Approved needs to be changed to some term that just defines a local match.
Here is the rule Aaron was applying:
19.17.1 Reclassification during a Registered Match - If a competitor shoots a score which is two or more classes above the currently held classification, that competitor shall be reclassified to one class below the class in which such high score falls, for that current match and thereafter. Example: If a Class A competitor shoots a AAA score, that competitor will immediately be reclassified to AA for that current match and thereafter. All shooters reclassified in this way must be reported to the NRA Competitive Shooting division.

The match directors for those two AAA scores did not move Joel up or report to the NRA Competitive Shooting Division because they were local monthly matches which are not Registered matches. We do not expect Aaron or any assistant competition director to understand the nuances of possibly hundreds of different NRA disciplines. Jeanne, I think we are correct that only Rule 19.17 not 19.17.1 applies in Joel's situation.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by Jerry G »

Too bad competitive shooters don't participate in management of our sports.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by lijeboy »

I have alerted Mr. Farmer to the confusion and I'm sure he will clear this up soon.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by lijeboy »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but, in my opinion, if Joel shot three AAA scores, he is AAA, no matter what type of match it was. The rule I cited above does not specify that it has to be a registered match to reclass. I understand if he shot one AAA in a monthly match which was "approved" he wouldn't automatically move up, but once he shoots three, he's upclassed to AAA.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by atomicbrh »

The history of Joel's scores show what happened.
He never shot three AAA scores.
He never shot Sporter at any match above the local level. All of the local club level match directors were correct in the upward moves in classification.
Here is a summary of all of Joel's Outdoor Sporter Air Rifle scores:
DATE: SCORE:
7/1/07-----9/40
No Outdoor Sporter Air Rifle Matches in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012.
10/19/13----12/40
5/10/14------28/40 This moved Joel up to A.
6/14/14------24/40
6/20/15------18/40 This moved Joel up to AA.
10/24/15-----13/40 Joel has not shot any Outdoor Sporter matches since 10/24/15.
I am not placing the chart that determines Sporter Rifle classifications here to cause more confusion. People can look that up on their own.
If all the rules on classification are followed precisely, Joel is a AA.
These erratic up and down swings in scores are due to Joel borrowing whatever rifle somebody was kind enough to lend him and how well they fit him. The reason Joel only moved up to A on 5/10/14 was because of the second sentence in the May 2018 Rules that did not make it to the PDF online version: "If the two or three higher scores are in different classifications, reclassification shall be to the lower of the one or two; the higher scores will also be used to reclassify upward." Why was that sentence not included in the online rules????
All that being said, studying this score scenario may help someone else someday in the same situation.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by dustinflint »

He is AA with no scores into AAA.

The 28/40, 24/40 and 18/40 are the three scores that moved him from A to AA.

Before this year, he would have been AA with two scores into AAA but with the new rule, those AAA scores are gone.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by Ferret Master »

Where are the new rules posted? The most current rules I have been able to find are dated 2016.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by lijeboy »

Ferret Master wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:12 pm
Where are the new rules posted? The most current rules I have been able to find are dated 2016.


2018 rulebook attached.
Attachments
2019 Rulebook.pdf
(497.29 KiB) Downloaded 37 times
Last edited by lijeboy on Mon May 06, 2019 3:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by Ferret Master »

When I open what you posted all that comes up is some ones 2018 Classification book. I found a link on here that had a few changes to the 2016 rules but not much help. I am trying to find out where in the rules it states when your classification expires. All I can find in the 2016 books is that it does not expire.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by lijeboy »

Ferret Master wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 2:50 pm
When I open what you posted all that comes up is some ones 2018 Classification book. I found a link on here that had a few changes to the 2016 rules but not much help. I am trying to find out where in the rules it states when your classification expires. All I can find in the 2016 books is that it does not expire.
Well, that's embarrassing. It's hell getting old and can't see. It's now attached to the original post.
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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by Ferret Master »

In the 2016 rule book:
19.16.1 Retaining Classification - Classification, once achieved, shall
not change until reclassification criteria has been followed as in Rule 19.17
or 19.17.1.
I have a shooter that wants to go to nationals this year but has not shot HPS since 2004. Aaron says that he has to shoot unclassified since his classification has long since expired. He has both his 2003 and 2004 classification books.
I did not see anything in the addition to rules 2018 in another post that applies.

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Re: Help! Aaron Farmer's Ruling Approved Same As Registered

Post by No1_49er »

From the 2019 Rule Book: - ( All NRA Rule Books posted on their web site - https://competitions.nra.org/competitio ... ule-books/. )

19.17 Reclassification - Competitors will be reclassified to a higher classification when they fire two scores in any higher classification to go from B class upward or three scores in any higher classification to go from A, AA, or AAA upward. Scores fired in the previous 24 months will be used to reclassify upward. Classifications will not expire. Reclassification to a lower classification will occur only by petition to the NRA Silhouette Department, and only if a competitor has fired 12 consecutive scores in a lower classification. Such downward reclassification may take place only once every two years. No competitor may be reclassified downward more than one class at a time. Also, if a shooter, once reclassified downward (example: AAA to AA), fires a score which falls into the previous higher class (AAA), that shooter will return to the previous higher class (AAA) at the conclusion of that tournament. No competitor will be changed in classification during the course of a tournament, except under the conditions listed in Rule 19.17.1.

Clearly, the scores from 2003/4 can not be used to reclassify, but, they have not expired. That classification will still hold for his entry.
And, because the score/s are more than two years old, can not be used as one of the reclassification scores.

Contrary to Aaron Farmers interpretation of what is written, and unless there has been a rule between 2004 and the current rules (2019) that says something to the effect that all classifications prior to a specific date are no longer to be used for re/classification, he is classified.

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