Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

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Another Dang 9
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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I may be in the minority on this but...NO SCOPES PLEASE. Top eject 94s are a PITA to drill and tap for a scope. I'm a big NO on that idea.
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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by lijeboy »

PhxShooter wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:28 am
Here is what I've learned regarding the rear lens debacle. If I'm wrong and someone has more accurate verifiable information please correct me.

At the 2018 Nationals inspection, one of the shooters who had a rear lens had his sight disallowed. There was some "discussion" regarding the sight and lens but the shooter was turned away. A few shooters later in the inspection line another shooter had the same exact rear lens sight. He was also denied the use of that sight. He, however, showed those who were inspecting, the actual rules and proved the inspectors wrong. His sight was allowed and retroactively the first shooters rear lens sight was allowed. That shooter, however, had already left the facility vowing never to return.

During the competitors meeting two (2) shooters complained about lenses in the rear sights. Whether or not it was rear sight lenses in general or the specific types of sights that brought about the discussion during inspection I don't know. I have been told that these incidents constitute the totality of information presented to the silhouette committee and based on these incidents and these incidents alone, all rear sights were banned. There was no input from the other hundreds of Lever Action shooters. I have also been informed that there is no longer a single Lever Action Silhouette shooter on the SIlhouette committee and in fact multiple members of the Silhouette committee do not participate in any form of silhouette shooting. What's wrong with this picture?

I know that this now falls into the category of conspiracy theory but "if" the NRA wants to kill Lever Action SIlhouette shooting this is the simplest way to go about it. The majority of our shooters are in the senior category and while not all of them use rear lenses MANY do. There goes perhaps 25% - 33% of the shooters if they retain this no rear lenses position. The NRA is a fantastic Legislative/Political orginization and without them we would have lost many of our gun rights but I also am being convinced that having to run shooting competitions is draining some of their resources that they'd rather spend in the Political/Legislative arena.

As I see it, we Lever Action SIlhouette Shooters have three basic choices. 1) we can accept status quo and slowly watch our sport go the way of Hunter Pistol. The last Hunter Pistol Nationals had only 38 participants and the NRA pulled all support of a National Championship. 2) We can try to get some Lever Action Silhouette shooters on the SIlhouette Committee so we actually have some representation. (and while we're at it see if we can't get all silhouette shooters on the Silhouette Committee). 3) This being the most difficult option, pull away from the NRA and start our own National Lever Gun Silhouette Association. 22BPCR very successufully accomplished that but it was no easy task and you'll notice I put that as the LAST option.

Oh, I forgot to mention shooting glasses. First it's not easy to find an optometrist that can make a good pair of shooting glasses for our sport. Second you're looking at a minimum of $200+ every year or maybe if you're lucky every other year for a new pair. With a lens in the rear sight the cost to change the lens is $30.

That's my thoughts on the matter.

Craig
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As the 2018 National Match Director, let me clear up some inaccuracies in your post, Craig.

The state of the rules in 2018 put few restrictions on a rear sights, including a lens.

First off, it is incorrect that sights you are discussing were disallowed by the inspector. NOT ONE rear sight was disallowed at the 2018 National Championship. None. Zip. Nada.

The shooter you are speaking of who left was advised by the inspector to please wait a couple of minutes so he could take a closer look when he had more time. The chief range officer literally begged him to stay so they could take another look at the sight and mount. The chief range officer also asked this shooter to please let them take it to the jury, as this is the way rules get changed. The sight was NOT disallowed, the shooter then left in a huff, and, as you say, vowed to never return.

Now to address the second shooter you mentioned. His sight was NOT "exactly like" the first shooter's sight, and the second shooter's sight was also allowed by the inspector. It had a lens in it. After it was passed, he asked his buddy to protest it, because they wanted a ruling on the lens issue. The shooter with the sight with the lens gave his buddy $10 to protest his own sight. I was there and witnessed all of this exchange. It was taken to the jury and the jury affirmed the inspector's initial decision to allow that sight, because with the then current state of the rules, it was a legal sight. When someone protests their own equipment at the National Championship, it invites scrutiny of the rules. That, coupled with the competitors at the competitors' meeting voicing concern of the equipment race with rear sights, got everyone's attention. There was a lot of grumbling about the rear sight issue and lack of clarification in the rules at the 2018 National Championships. We now have clarification.

To your point of no Lever Action silhouette shooters being on the committee, that is incorrect also. There are two Lever Action shooters on the committee, and the new chairman has shot lever action in the past, is my understanding. I'm not certain of all the members, but you are correct that SOME of the members do not shoot silhouette, to my knowledge, and I share your frustration with that. It makes no sense to me.

The "conspiracy theory" portion of your post is downright silly.

I've been working closely with the NRA Competition's Division for 18 months, and can assure you that they are NOT trying to kill Silhouette. I have found the men and women in Competitions to be passionate about the shooting sports. I have been informed that a COMPETITOR actually called the NRA during the National Championships last year to complain that I, as the match director, was shooting the match. The new Assistant Director of the Competitions Division shot the Smallbore Lever Action match with me. He loved it. He is a great advocate for the shooters. He plans to shoot the National Championships again this year, including Lever Action and BPCR. Not only is the NRA promoting shooting, they are participating in the matches.

Emmett has addressed the shooting glasses much in the same way I would. I've used Dr. Bob's glasses also. They are reasonable, and that's not the only shooting glasses available. Right now, I shoot with my daily wear glasses. It's working fine for me.

As Brent suggested, I think it's time for a scoped class for Lever Action to extend the shooting lives of our aging shooters. BPCR added scope a few years ago and it's wildly successful. The purists can continue to shoot with iron sights, but those who are unable to will have an option if a scope class is added.

In the future, before perpetuating rumors, please feel free to contact me. My email address is jeanne@mbo.net. Shooters from all over this country, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have found me to be readily available and quick to answer questions.
Last edited by lijeboy on Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by cedestech »

BrentD wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 am
In my opinion lever gun needs a scope class, just like BPCR. A separate class with simple scope restrictions.
Holy crap, was JUST having this conversation yesterday.... that is the slippery slope... . =))

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by cedestech »

PhxShooter wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:53 am
To which part of the statement are you responding?
I know the committee member who also regularly shoots lever action, small bore and hunter pistol silhouette....

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by cedestech »

lijeboy wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:07 am


In the future, before perpetuating rumors, please feel free to contact me. My email address is jeanne@mbo.net. Shooters from all over this country, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have found me to be readily available and quick to answer questions.

What ever.... everyone knows you are aloof and unhelpful.... =))

(that is completely facetious... Jeanne is the most helpful person I know. She has WAY too much on her plate but is more then happy to help any time she can or point you in the correct direction)

:-B

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by lijeboy »

cedestech wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:23 am
lijeboy wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:07 am


In the future, before perpetuating rumors, please feel free to contact me. My email address is jeanne@mbo.net. Shooters from all over this country, New Zealand, Australia, and Canada have found me to be readily available and quick to answer questions.

What ever.... everyone knows you are aloof and unhelpful.... =))

(that is completely facetious... Jeanne is the most helpful person I know. She has WAY too much on her plate but is more then happy to help any time she can or point you in the correct direction)

:-B
Thanks, Emmett. One of the Oklahoma shooters said the other day, "I don't know how you do it all."

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by BrentD »

Another Dang 9 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:37 am
I may be in the minority on this but...NO SCOPES PLEASE. Top eject 94s are a PITA to drill and tap for a scope. I'm a big NO on that idea.
I don't think you are in a minority at all. I think I am. But why you would care is the part I don't get. It simply would not affect you.

Marlins rule for a reason :) :)

Just trying to keep it light. I know this is a heartburn issue for some and I don't want to stir the pot, but just give some folks a way to participate.

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by atomicbrh »

Ok, so lenses "magnified or non-magnified" are no longer allowed in lever action. Think about this in a different way. The competitor who is having vision problems has a physical disability. According to Rule 13.1, that competitor has the right to formally petition the NRA Protest Committee to assume a special position or use modified equipment, or both. There is a detailed process that must be followed and that is outlined in Section 13.1. I would say that a lens falls in the "modified" equipment category. Notice also that the wording in the last sentence in the first paragraph says the statement must be from a "medical doctor". In the case of vision this means Ophthalmologist and not Optometrist since the Optometrist is technically not a "medical doctor". Notice that two types of authorizations are issued: temporary and permanent. So if a person needed the lens during the years cataracts were developing and then had cataract surgery restoring vision, the lens would no longer be approved for that person. The great thing for people like PhxShooter is that they can petition the Committee and see if their lens is approved as medical equipment before they spend the time and money to travel to a match. All they have to do is have that special authorization certificate with them when they go through pre-match equipment inspection. When you look at these details and scenarios in the rules package, you realize that the founders of this sport were really intelligent people.
Here is rule 13 for those of you that do not want to click a link.

13. PHYSICALLY DISABLED SHOOTERS
13.1 Physically Disabled Shooters - A shooter who because of a physical
disability cannot fire from one or more of the prescribed shooting positions
outlined in these Rules, or who must use special equipment when firing, is
privileged to petition the NRA Protest Committee for permission to assume
a special position or to use modified equipment, or both. This petition will be
in the form of a written request from the person concerned to the Committee
outlining in detail the reasons why the special position must be assumed or the
special equipment must be used. The petition will be accompanied by pictures
of the shooter in the position for which approval is desired and, if special
equipment is required, the pictures will show how this equipment is used. The
petition and all pictures must be furnished in exact duplicate. The petition must
be accompanied by a medical doctor’s statement if the physical disability is not
completely evident in the pictures submitted.
(a) Each petition will be reviewed by the NRA Protest Committee. The
Committee may require additional or supplementary statements,
medical information or pictures. If approved, the NRA Secretary
will issue a special authorization certificate to the individual concerned.
Such certificates will have necessary pictures attached.
(b) Shooters who have received special authorization certificates are
required to present them when requested by officials of the competition.
(c) In the event of a protest involving the position or the equipment used
by such a shooter, the Jury will compare the questioned position or
equipment with the certificate and photographs presented by the
shooter. If the shooter’s position or equipment does not in the opinion
of the officials, conform to that authorized by the NRA Secretary
(or if the shooter has no authorized certificate or pictures), the
protest shall be allowed and the shooter will be required to change
immediately to the position or equipment which has been approved
or to an otherwise legal position or equipment.
(d) Should a protest be carried beyond the Jury, the original protest will
be endorsed by the Jury Chairman to show the action the Jury has
taken and will be forwarded to the National Rifle Association.
(e) National Records and Grand Slams may not be established by use of
scores fired in special positions or with special equipment as may be
authorized according to this Rule.
(f) Two types of authorizations are issued: temporary and permanent.
Permanent authorizations are issued to competitors who are permanently
disabled.

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

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lijeboy wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:31 am


I know "How," but sometimes I wonder "Why."
Because life is about being useful and you have found a thing to do that is useful and you enjoy it.

To be fair, I have yet to have a single bad experience with anybody from the or representing the NRA.

A little history. I have been shooting a bit over 10 years. After about 5 or so the match director at one of the clubs I belong to asked if I would take over the lever action match. I did. I have helped with state matches and started participating in other state matches over the last few years. Went to the nationals last year for the first time. Last year started hosting large one off registered matches. Everyone I have ever had to ask questions of or deal with has been incredibly helpful and joyful to help.

I think a lot of people are leery of the NRA because they are this big faceless organization that can have consequences in your life in something you enjoy. I know before I started dealing with the NRA that is how they
were always portrayed to me. Kinda like "the gubberment" or "the man".....

The NRA we deal with is not the NRA you see on TV or in you mail box. They are under the same umbrella but the one we deal with is only concerned with firearm competition. I am no expert but I'd bet their salaries aren't equal to Waynes... They are probably doing it because they enjoy it and it's something they fell into. I don't think there is a "degree" path for it at major universities...

Maybe we should develop a sticky on this forum (which I will remind you again is a very vocal MINORITY of shooters) of who to contact and how to go about certain functions that the average shooter or match director has to do dealing with the NRA. God knows my Google-fu is usually pretty strong but after a while of trying to find my own answers I have to pester someone who I think can at least point me in the correct direction....

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:07 am
Ok, so lenses "magnified or non-magnified" are no longer allowed in lever action. Think about this in a different way. The competitor who is having vision problems has a physical disability. According to Rule 13.1, that competitor has the right to formally petition the NRA Protest Committee to assume a special position or use modified equipment, or both.
That is a very useful suggestion. Sincerely, thank you.

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by thauglor »

Friend is letting me try a rear lens in my sight this weekend for a match. I have been doing lever silhouette only as a fun thing because I cant see the target.

If I can see the target, I'll be sticking with the lens and increasing my lever gun match participation. I would rather shoot and enjoy it than not. I have limited vacation time, if the lens helps, well I can always go to Hawaii instead of lever nationals this year if they keep it illegal.

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by Jason »

I don't want to derail this thread into a deeper technical discussion about lenses in rear sights, so I created a separate thread in the Lever Action forum. I do want to make sure we don't lose shooters because of a mistaken perception, though.

The human eye can't focus perfectly clearly on both the front sight and a distant target at the same time unless there is a lens between those two altering the focus of the target. A smaller aperture, or adjustable aperture adjusted to be smaller, on the rear sight can help greatly with this, though. You can find a lot more technical information on this from an old thread we had on this forum from someone who specializes in the topic. It gives a very good explanation of how seeing sights and target simultaneously work.

Lenses and Apertures

Please don't quit shooting lever action silhouette over the rear lens issue, as the correction there can be accomplished through shooting glasses. I am a bit near-sighted so the target is very blurry for me when the front sight is crisp, also. It's just a matter of looking through a smaller rear aperture, and if needed finding the right prescription, regardless of whether the lens is in the rear sight or in shooting glasses.

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by snaketail2 »

BrentD wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 am
In my opinion lever gun needs a scope class, just like BPCR. A separate class with simple scope restrictions.
I made that suggest a couple of years ago - 6 power or lower power scopes shooting Pistol Cartridge rifles at CLA distances...

Here is the total number of responses I got to my suggestion. Nada, Zilch, ZERO! Guess it was a waste of time to suggest that.

One of the things that is driving me away from Lever Action Silhouette is the BS Bickering that goes on and on and on. No longer going the Raton - too far to drive to listen to the bickering.

Michael
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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by dustinflint »

In case anyone is unaware, Highpower Rifle, Highpower Hunting Rifle, Smallbore Rifle, Smallbore Hunting Rifle, Open Air Rifle, Target Air Rifle and Sporter Air Rifle Silhouette all allow scopes. They are all lots of fun and very challenging. Feel free to come shoot!

Dustin

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Re: Silhouette Rifle Rules Changes - 2018

Post by psteiger »

oh crap, the LAWYER is in the house..................... =))

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